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Thanks for sharing. It’s interesting that both replies so far have played down the financial aspect. I’d find it strange if a US-based client expected me/us to

Thanks for sharing. It’s interesting that both replies so far have played down the financial aspect. I’d find it strange if a US-based client expected me/us to do a project for them at typical UK freelancer rates. There’s little reason to take on all the extra risks and overheads that would come with the international relationship if the fees weren’t significantly higher as well. Looking at the recent threads about rates here on HN, it seems rates of $10K-15K per week are not unusual for good freelance devs in the US, but half of that would be doing relatively well for most freelancers in the UK so there’s definitely room for both sides to win financially.

gregjor 4y ago
Take what you read about freelancer rates online with a grain of salt. $10k/wk is $250/hr, at the high end of US freelancer rates. Some freelancers do get such rates but the US median is more like $60-$80/hr for typical software development. I’ve freelanced for US companies for 15 years while traveling all over the world and no customer ever cared where I live as long as I answer their messages promptly. Companies outsource overseas mainly to save money. They may do it because they can’t get US-based employees or freelancers. If they have to pay US rates for foreign contractors they will prefer to hire Americans. The unfilled demand here is for experienced senior people, so if you can position yourself as well above average you can charge more. Hiring freelancers overseas doesn’t present any actual new risk or overhead to either party. Companies may imagine it does out of ignorance or inexperience. Hiring foreign employees does create tax and labor law compliance issues, which is why outsourcing to freelancers and overseas contract firms is so popular.
- Chris_Newton 4y ago
  The unfilled demand here is for experienced senior people, so if you can position yourself as well above average you can charge more. This is the bracket I’m most interested in myself: people who are sufficiently skilled and experienced that you can send them a spec for something you need to build, communicate further as needed during development, and then expect to have a good product delivered when they’re done.
  - gregjor 4y ago
    Yeah that’s what we all wish for. In real life customers rarely have the ability to write a complete and consistent spec. That’s why we have iterative development and agile. The model I use is much more incremental, with a list of clear deliverables and expected cost. Work with customer to define requirements, write those down with estimates, agree, deliver, review, repeat. My customers see constant progress and can change direction at any time, they never owe me so much money I would suffer if they don’t pay. If you try to freelance with the waterfall/BDUF method you describe you’ll run into problems.
    - Chris_Newton 4y ago
      In real life customers rarely have the ability to write a complete and consistent spec. That’s why we have iterative development and agile. Well, yes, that’s the “communicate further as needed” part, isn’t it? :-)
      - gregjor 4y ago
        Maybe. You and the customer may have very different expectations about communication. The number one complaint I hear from my customers is the last guy/firm stopped communicating, or took days to answer emails. The second most common complaint I hear is that the last guy didn’t listen to what the customer actually wanted. Customers ask for solutions to business problems. Freelancers too often think the customer is asking for thousands of lines of React code.
        Chris_Newton 4y ago
        Sure, though all of this doesn’t seem any different to other freelance development work. Communication has always been key in client relationships. My intended point was just that I’m talking about the level of freelancer with enough skill and experience to get a good job done themselves and with minimal disruption or drama. That kind of person isn’t likely to be charging sub-£500 day rates over here so I’d be very surprised if they were charging sub-$500 rates across the pond.
gregjor 4y ago
What extra risks and overheads do you mean, regarding international relationships? Enforcing a contract or collecting payment (or getting quality work) are problems with US-based relationships, generally too tedious and expensive for both parties to bother with. You reduce risk by setting clear deliverables and expectations up front and not getting into the position of the customer owing you a lot of money. Other than the minor hassle of wire transfer and currency conversion I’m not aware of any significant overhead due to contracting from outside the US.
- Chris_Newton 4y ago
  One example is that we seem to need to send clients a significantly complicated form they can use if the IRS ask to confirm that we’re paying tax on earnings here in the UK so they aren’t required to deduct anything at source. Another is that my company’s professional insurance costs would apparently increase significantly if we did any business with US clients.
  - gregjor 4y ago
    The IRS has no jurisdiction with UK taxes. If you aren’t US citizens or permanent residents you aren’t subject to US taxes. The customer is not obligated under US law to comply with foreign tax obligations. Paying your taxes in the UK is your responsibility — your US customers have no obligation unless you are considered employees or they have a presence in the UK that creates a tax responsibility there (usually called “nexus”). What professional insurance does a freelancer need? In 15 years freelancing I got asked about errors and omissions insurance exactly once. I told the customer they would have to cover that since it’s an unusual requirement. Larger companies and government agencies demand that kind of thing, not my customer base.
    - Chris_Newton 4y ago
      The customer is not obligated under US law to comply with foreign tax obligations. Are there not withholding obligations under US tax rules for the customer, though, unless they have something like a W-8BEN or W-8BEN-E? I’m by no means an expert in this area, but my understanding was that without providing the official paperwork, the customer would be required to deduct US taxes for US-sourced income before paying their bill. What professional insurance does a freelancer need? We carry professional indemnity, among other things.
badpun 4y ago
> Looking at the recent threads about rates here on HN, it seems rates of $10K-15K per week are not unusual for good freelance devs in the US I don't know US market that well, but I imagine 15k per week is mostly for either short engagement (a couple of weeks) or for mid-term engagements of someone really senior that can come on-site often.

gregjor 4y ago

Take what you read about freelancer rates online with a grain of salt. $10k/wk is $250/hr, at the high end of US freelancer rates. Some freelancers do get such rates but the US median is more like $60-$80/hr for typical software development. I’ve freelanced for US companies for 15 years while traveling all over the world and no customer ever cared where I live as long as I answer their messages promptly. Companies outsource overseas mainly to save money. They may do it because they can’t get US-based employees or freelancers. If they have to pay US rates for foreign contractors they will prefer to hire Americans. The unfilled demand here is for experienced senior people, so if you can position yourself as well above average you can charge more. Hiring freelancers overseas doesn’t present any actual new risk or overhead to either party. Companies may imagine it does out of ignorance or inexperience. Hiring foreign employees does create tax and labor law compliance issues, which is why outsourcing to freelancers and overseas contract firms is so popular.

Chris_Newton 4y ago
The unfilled demand here is for experienced senior people, so if you can position yourself as well above average you can charge more. This is the bracket I’m most interested in myself: people who are sufficiently skilled and experienced that you can send them a spec for something you need to build, communicate further as needed during development, and then expect to have a good product delivered when they’re done.
- gregjor 4y ago
  Yeah that’s what we all wish for. In real life customers rarely have the ability to write a complete and consistent spec. That’s why we have iterative development and agile. The model I use is much more incremental, with a list of clear deliverables and expected cost. Work with customer to define requirements, write those down with estimates, agree, deliver, review, repeat. My customers see constant progress and can change direction at any time, they never owe me so much money I would suffer if they don’t pay. If you try to freelance with the waterfall/BDUF method you describe you’ll run into problems.
  - Chris_Newton 4y ago
    In real life customers rarely have the ability to write a complete and consistent spec. That’s why we have iterative development and agile. Well, yes, that’s the “communicate further as needed” part, isn’t it? :-)
    - gregjor 4y ago
      Maybe. You and the customer may have very different expectations about communication. The number one complaint I hear from my customers is the last guy/firm stopped communicating, or took days to answer emails. The second most common complaint I hear is that the last guy didn’t listen to what the customer actually wanted. Customers ask for solutions to business problems. Freelancers too often think the customer is asking for thousands of lines of React code.
      - Chris_Newton 4y ago
        Sure, though all of this doesn’t seem any different to other freelance development work. Communication has always been key in client relationships. My intended point was just that I’m talking about the level of freelancer with enough skill and experience to get a good job done themselves and with minimal disruption or drama. That kind of person isn’t likely to be charging sub-£500 day rates over here so I’d be very surprised if they were charging sub-$500 rates across the pond.

gregjor 4y ago

What extra risks and overheads do you mean, regarding international relationships? Enforcing a contract or collecting payment (or getting quality work) are problems with US-based relationships, generally too tedious and expensive for both parties to bother with. You reduce risk by setting clear deliverables and expectations up front and not getting into the position of the customer owing you a lot of money. Other than the minor hassle of wire transfer and currency conversion I’m not aware of any significant overhead due to contracting from outside the US.

Chris_Newton 4y ago
One example is that we seem to need to send clients a significantly complicated form they can use if the IRS ask to confirm that we’re paying tax on earnings here in the UK so they aren’t required to deduct anything at source. Another is that my company’s professional insurance costs would apparently increase significantly if we did any business with US clients.
- gregjor 4y ago
  The IRS has no jurisdiction with UK taxes. If you aren’t US citizens or permanent residents you aren’t subject to US taxes. The customer is not obligated under US law to comply with foreign tax obligations. Paying your taxes in the UK is your responsibility — your US customers have no obligation unless you are considered employees or they have a presence in the UK that creates a tax responsibility there (usually called “nexus”). What professional insurance does a freelancer need? In 15 years freelancing I got asked about errors and omissions insurance exactly once. I told the customer they would have to cover that since it’s an unusual requirement. Larger companies and government agencies demand that kind of thing, not my customer base.
  - Chris_Newton 4y ago
    The customer is not obligated under US law to comply with foreign tax obligations. Are there not withholding obligations under US tax rules for the customer, though, unless they have something like a W-8BEN or W-8BEN-E? I’m by no means an expert in this area, but my understanding was that without providing the official paperwork, the customer would be required to deduct US taxes for US-sourced income before paying their bill. What professional insurance does a freelancer need? We carry professional indemnity, among other things.

badpun 4y ago

> Looking at the recent threads about rates here on HN, it seems rates of $10K-15K per week are not unusual for good freelance devs in the US I don't know US market that well, but I imagine 15k per week is mostly for either short engagement (a couple of weeks) or for mid-term engagements of someone really senior that can come on-site often.