7 ms·

If the goal is to reduce CO2 emissions, why not tax CO2 emissions? Shouldn't the market work it out in the best possible way then?

guipsp 4y ago
Not everyone has the same belief in market based solutions as you do.
robertlagrant 4y ago
In the UK road tax is based on your car's CO2 emissions. The problem is when the VW scandal broke, lots of people had bought diesels to lower their CO2 and suddenly diesels were evil and needed disincentivising. So the problem is anything like that isn't cleverly designed enough to be trustworthy, or even if it is, political whim could still overturn it.
- izacus 4y ago
  I seriously doubt diesels were ever bought to "lower their CO2 emissions". At no point in time there was ever doubt that diesels were the more polluting option. People bought diesels due to their lower consumption per 100km and lower diesel prices in comparison to 95.
  - kuschku 4y ago
    > I seriously doubt diesels were ever bought to "lower their CO2 emissions". At no point in time there was ever doubt that diesels were the more polluting option. That's two entirely independent statements. VW Diesels do produce lower CO2 emissions. But when building an engine, there's a tradeoff: the leaner it burns, the lower the CO2 emissions and the higher the NOx emissions. The Diesel scandal was about NOx.
    - robertlagrant 4y ago
      That's it. The UK government incentivised low CO2, i.e. diesel, so lots of diesels were bought, then after dieselgate there was lots of condemnation of diesels.
  - Semaphor 4y ago
    > At no point in time there was ever doubt that diesels were the more polluting option. Now I never closely looked into this as I never planned on owning a car, but until then just from what I picked up reading newspapers and things (in Germany), I actually assumed they were the more environmentally friendly option.
    - robertlagrant 4y ago
      It just depends on whether you want CO2 (bad for planet) or NOx and particulates (bad for nearby humans). With ICE cars you just have to choose.
      - Semaphor 4y ago
        Nothing I read back then (again, without going deep) had that kind of granularity. It was all bad vs good ;)
        robertlagrant 4y ago
        Yes, quite. That's what happens when "journalism" becomes a generic thing you can study, instead of experts in a field becoming journalists in that field. All your news sources barely know what they're writing about. Old man rant over.
mym1990 4y ago
It would be the number one way to not being re-elected. I think herding people towards a better alternative via creative strategies while not creating public outrage is a good way to go from a politician's perspective.
wongarsu 4y ago
We do. In Germany emissions from burning fuel for transportation and heating is taxed with €30/kg CO2, rising to €55/kg CO2 by 2026. There's also a cap-and-trade scheme at EU level that covers various industries [1]. It was very tame for a long time, with prices hovering around €5/kg CO2, but since 2018 prices have gone up a lot and it now sits around €80/kg CO2. Still, German public transit is in need of some reforms, and seeing that an experiment produced greenhouse gas reductions is a positive signal. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Emissions_Trading_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Emissions_Tradi... [2] https://icapcarbonaction.com/en/ets-prices https://icapcarbonaction.com/en/ets-prices (click on systems to filter)

guipsp 4y ago

Not everyone has the same belief in market based solutions as you do.

robertlagrant 4y ago

In the UK road tax is based on your car's CO2 emissions. The problem is when the VW scandal broke, lots of people had bought diesels to lower their CO2 and suddenly diesels were evil and needed disincentivising. So the problem is anything like that isn't cleverly designed enough to be trustworthy, or even if it is, political whim could still overturn it.

izacus 4y ago
I seriously doubt diesels were ever bought to "lower their CO2 emissions". At no point in time there was ever doubt that diesels were the more polluting option. People bought diesels due to their lower consumption per 100km and lower diesel prices in comparison to 95.
- kuschku 4y ago
  > I seriously doubt diesels were ever bought to "lower their CO2 emissions". At no point in time there was ever doubt that diesels were the more polluting option. That's two entirely independent statements. VW Diesels do produce lower CO2 emissions. But when building an engine, there's a tradeoff: the leaner it burns, the lower the CO2 emissions and the higher the NOx emissions. The Diesel scandal was about NOx.
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    That's it. The UK government incentivised low CO2, i.e. diesel, so lots of diesels were bought, then after dieselgate there was lots of condemnation of diesels.
- Semaphor 4y ago
  > At no point in time there was ever doubt that diesels were the more polluting option. Now I never closely looked into this as I never planned on owning a car, but until then just from what I picked up reading newspapers and things (in Germany), I actually assumed they were the more environmentally friendly option.
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    It just depends on whether you want CO2 (bad for planet) or NOx and particulates (bad for nearby humans). With ICE cars you just have to choose.
    - Semaphor 4y ago
      Nothing I read back then (again, without going deep) had that kind of granularity. It was all bad vs good ;)
      - robertlagrant 4y ago
        Yes, quite. That's what happens when "journalism" becomes a generic thing you can study, instead of experts in a field becoming journalists in that field. All your news sources barely know what they're writing about. Old man rant over.

mym1990 4y ago

It would be the number one way to not being re-elected. I think herding people towards a better alternative via creative strategies while not creating public outrage is a good way to go from a politician's perspective.

wongarsu 4y ago

We do. In Germany emissions from burning fuel for transportation and heating is taxed with €30/kg CO2, rising to €55/kg CO2 by 2026. There's also a cap-and-trade scheme at EU level that covers various industries [1]. It was very tame for a long time, with prices hovering around €5/kg CO2, but since 2018 prices have gone up a lot and it now sits around €80/kg CO2. Still, German public transit is in need of some reforms, and seeing that an experiment produced greenhouse gas reductions is a positive signal. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Emissions_Trading_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Emissions_Tradi... [2] https://icapcarbonaction.com/en/ets-prices https://icapcarbonaction.com/en/ets-prices (click on systems to filter)