6 ms·

Thankfully, shit like this will soon be illegal in the EU when the Digital Markets Act hits. Hopefully they'll plug all the loopholes and actually enforce it.

Thankfully, shit like this will soon be illegal in the EU when the Digital Markets Act hits. Hopefully they'll plug all the loopholes and actually enforce it. I don't understand how anyone can defend business practices like this, which are exclusively there for the purpose of platform lock-in.

hbosch 4y ago
What will be illegal, exactly? There is actually nothing stopping iPhones from communicating with Android phones. iMessage, a proprietary messaging app, colors data messages blue and SMS messages green for the user's benefit. There is an entire world of messaging apps that aren't iMessage. The main gripe from Android users seems to be a mere social issue. Also, isn't it my understanding that in EU most people use other messaging apps already?
- nyuszika7h 4y ago
  Not everyone is American. Texts are usually not free in Europe unless you're on the highest plan. And some people don't use other apps. Before iOS 15 I had a problem even though my mom uses Viber: iOS didn't allow me to set Viber to bypass Do Not Disturb, it was only possible with calls and SMS/iMessage.
- DavideNL 4y ago
  > What will be illegal, exactly? "During a close to 8-hour long trilogue (three-way talks between Parliament, Council and Commission), EU lawmakers agreed that the largest messaging services (such as Whatsapp, Facebook Messenger or iMessage) will have to open up and interoperate with smaller messaging platforms, if they so request. Users of small or big platforms would then be able to exchange messages, send files or make video calls across messaging apps, thus giving them more choice." https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/nl/press-room/20220315IPR25504/deal-on-digital-markets-act-ensuring-fair-competition-and-more-choice-for-users https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/nl/press-room/20220315IP...
  - phendrenad2 4y ago
    So what will be illegal, are things iMessage does not do. Got it. (iMessage can interoperate with Android, it just changes the formatting. Show me where the EU lawmakers determine CSS policy).
samuel 4y ago
This is a non-issue in a lot of EU countries where people use WhatsApp for everything.
- kyriakos 4y ago
  SMS is only used for 2FA and spam in EU. Everyone uses WhatsApp, viber, telegram or Facebook messenger for actual messaging with friends and family.
yieldcrv 4y ago
because this one is happenstance I like the EU using their market position to remedy this But aside from that it doesn't reach an antitrust issue because Apple didnt need to do anything, the people chose to associate the unencrypted message with Android and a perceived inferiority - and nobody actually cares that RCS got implemented to supersede SMS and MMS at some random time over the last decade
blantonl 4y ago
Since when did Apple have any obligation to provide iMessage to Android users? 10 years ago? Now? I think Tim Cook is spot on here. Get an iPhone for your grandma if she wants the user experience that iMessages provide. Otherwise, you can get her signal or snapchat or one of the 4,225 secure messaging ecosystems.
- simonsarris 4y ago
  I think if you comingle inventory (SMS messages and iMessages) and don't make that very clear to your users (Apple wants to do the opposite, to make it feel seamless), you have some obligation to not mess up the user experience on other people's devices. So I guess since then.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    How much more seam is needed than two different colors, and a label at the top of the chat window identifying the message protocol?
- heavymark 4y ago
  Grandma is probably more than happy with her familiar experience and rather the iphone son user who loves his iPhone but hates the limitations of having to send SMS essentially with his grandmother. So in this scenarios Tim saying son should by an android would make more sense as he’d be able to learn a new system easily than her presumably or them both having to use a separate less ideal app just to communicate with each other. If they both preferred signal or such they would use it but even in that case the rest of their friends and fam would still be using another app. So just get person an iphone isn’t realistic especially if some have to use one or the other since work pays for phone or such.
- maxsilver 4y ago
  > Since when did Apple have any obligation to provide iMessage to Android users? They don't. But that's not necessarily the complaint either. The argument is that they do have an obligation to not intentionally break the native cell service you paid for, which is exactly what they're doing by ignoring the RCS portion of modern LTE (GSMA) spec. It's got nothing to do with iMessage in truth. iMessage is simply how Apple has chosen to frame their excuse for intentionally breaking your cell service.
rchaud 4y ago
It's not an issue anywhere in the world except the US, where apparently school kids can get bullied if their texts in group chats are the wrong colour.
- 4oo4 4y ago
  Agreed, I think that's the most compelling reason why they should implement RCS. The reporter had a huge missed opportunity not to bring this up. If you want to have adults peer pressure each other with emotional manipulation to buy your product, that's disgusting, but fine, you have the right to do that. However there's a huge ethical line that gets crossed when that's done to children. Teaching kids and teens that brand loyalty is necessary to maintain friendships and an identity is extremely toxic and stupid.
  - rchaud 4y ago
    Kids suck. iMessage didn't invent bullying. It's just the latest in a long line of arbitrary identifiers of status. If it wasn't the iPhone, it would be the brand of shoes they wore.
    - ntp85 4y ago
      Be that as it may, as opposed to the brand of shoes they (or their parents) bought, there is something that can be done to prevent this bullying at least.
  - slowmovintarget 4y ago
    I don't think that's the right takeaway. I think the bigger issue is that we let kids create their own social structure in schools (in the US) where in-group out-group dynamics include bullying over what color your texts are, what clothes you are wearing, what songs you listen to... etc. School culture should be about academic achievement, and controlled and led by teachers. It works that way in other schools systems. Grown ups actually place limits on bad behaviors of children, with the full support of parents. In this case, that might mean not giving kids personal multimedia devices, and not permitting their use on school grounds at all.
cloogshicer 4y ago
Also, this is not about Android or iMessage specifically, it's about interoperability. WhatsApp etc. are just as guilty. Wouldn't it be amazing if you could message all your friends in a single App, without having to think about what platform they're using? If you could just see and respond to all their messages in a single thread, one for each friend? The number of messengers I have installed on my phone (and I'm forced to use regularly because they're not interoperable) is madness.
pwinnski 4y ago
To which business practice are you referring? a) developing a messaging product, then not porting it to your biggest competitor? b) declining to implement a mediocre standard at your biggest competitor's behest? The last major US carrier finally deployed RCS this year, some smaller carriers around the world still do not support it, and it notably requires carrier participation, unlike iMessage. c) ??? It isn't as if Apple is blocking communication with non-Apple devices. If Apple is somehow legally forced to spend the time and effort to implement RCS, then I would hope they would still find a way to make it clear at a glance when I'm sending a message via iMessage vs RCS or whatever else.
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  iMessage purposefully kneecaps communication with non-apple devices. They are trying, and succeeding, to make it extremely cumbersome to text androids. I can't blame them, it's an incredibly successful strategy that has locked me into their ecosystem at the very least. But it's also obviously anti-competitive.
  - pwinnski 4y ago
    I'm not seeing it. I can text phones running Android just fine. I can't use new carrier-dependent features when texting Android phones, but Verizon Android users couldn't use those new features either until a couple of months ago, so I'm not sure how upset I should be about Apple still not supporting that. I don't think I would call it "cumbersome," let alone "extremely cumbersome." I see no artificial restrictions on communicating with Android devices. Nothing is blocked, nothing is available but restricted, so I don't think "kneecapped" is the right word here. They are not investing the effort to support a new thing, Google's umpteenth effort at messaging, which requires carrier dependence and undermines end-to-end encryption. Some people might find that unfortunate, but I don't think "refusing to implement new service" is the same as "kneecapping communication," personally.
    - colinmhayes 4y ago
      > I can text phones running Android just fine. I don't agree. Waiting ten plus seconds for each text to send is not a viable way to have a conversation. Anything beyond 5 or so texts becomes unbearbale.

hbosch 4y ago

What will be illegal, exactly? There is actually nothing stopping iPhones from communicating with Android phones. iMessage, a proprietary messaging app, colors data messages blue and SMS messages green for the user's benefit. There is an entire world of messaging apps that aren't iMessage. The main gripe from Android users seems to be a mere social issue. Also, isn't it my understanding that in EU most people use other messaging apps already?

nyuszika7h 4y ago
Not everyone is American. Texts are usually not free in Europe unless you're on the highest plan. And some people don't use other apps. Before iOS 15 I had a problem even though my mom uses Viber: iOS didn't allow me to set Viber to bypass Do Not Disturb, it was only possible with calls and SMS/iMessage.
DavideNL 4y ago
> What will be illegal, exactly? "During a close to 8-hour long trilogue (three-way talks between Parliament, Council and Commission), EU lawmakers agreed that the largest messaging services (such as Whatsapp, Facebook Messenger or iMessage) will have to open up and interoperate with smaller messaging platforms, if they so request. Users of small or big platforms would then be able to exchange messages, send files or make video calls across messaging apps, thus giving them more choice." https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/nl/press-room/20220315IPR25504/deal-on-digital-markets-act-ensuring-fair-competition-and-more-choice-for-users https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/nl/press-room/20220315IP...
- phendrenad2 4y ago
  So what will be illegal, are things iMessage does not do. Got it. (iMessage can interoperate with Android, it just changes the formatting. Show me where the EU lawmakers determine CSS policy).

samuel 4y ago

This is a non-issue in a lot of EU countries where people use WhatsApp for everything.

kyriakos 4y ago
SMS is only used for 2FA and spam in EU. Everyone uses WhatsApp, viber, telegram or Facebook messenger for actual messaging with friends and family.

yieldcrv 4y ago

because this one is happenstance I like the EU using their market position to remedy this But aside from that it doesn't reach an antitrust issue because Apple didnt need to do anything, the people chose to associate the unencrypted message with Android and a perceived inferiority - and nobody actually cares that RCS got implemented to supersede SMS and MMS at some random time over the last decade

blantonl 4y ago

Since when did Apple have any obligation to provide iMessage to Android users? 10 years ago? Now? I think Tim Cook is spot on here. Get an iPhone for your grandma if she wants the user experience that iMessages provide. Otherwise, you can get her signal or snapchat or one of the 4,225 secure messaging ecosystems.

simonsarris 4y ago
I think if you comingle inventory (SMS messages and iMessages) and don't make that very clear to your users (Apple wants to do the opposite, to make it feel seamless), you have some obligation to not mess up the user experience on other people's devices. So I guess since then.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  How much more seam is needed than two different colors, and a label at the top of the chat window identifying the message protocol?
heavymark 4y ago
Grandma is probably more than happy with her familiar experience and rather the iphone son user who loves his iPhone but hates the limitations of having to send SMS essentially with his grandmother. So in this scenarios Tim saying son should by an android would make more sense as he’d be able to learn a new system easily than her presumably or them both having to use a separate less ideal app just to communicate with each other. If they both preferred signal or such they would use it but even in that case the rest of their friends and fam would still be using another app. So just get person an iphone isn’t realistic especially if some have to use one or the other since work pays for phone or such.
maxsilver 4y ago
> Since when did Apple have any obligation to provide iMessage to Android users? They don't. But that's not necessarily the complaint either. The argument is that they do have an obligation to not intentionally break the native cell service you paid for, which is exactly what they're doing by ignoring the RCS portion of modern LTE (GSMA) spec. It's got nothing to do with iMessage in truth. iMessage is simply how Apple has chosen to frame their excuse for intentionally breaking your cell service.

rchaud 4y ago

It's not an issue anywhere in the world except the US, where apparently school kids can get bullied if their texts in group chats are the wrong colour.

4oo4 4y ago
Agreed, I think that's the most compelling reason why they should implement RCS. The reporter had a huge missed opportunity not to bring this up. If you want to have adults peer pressure each other with emotional manipulation to buy your product, that's disgusting, but fine, you have the right to do that. However there's a huge ethical line that gets crossed when that's done to children. Teaching kids and teens that brand loyalty is necessary to maintain friendships and an identity is extremely toxic and stupid.
- rchaud 4y ago
  Kids suck. iMessage didn't invent bullying. It's just the latest in a long line of arbitrary identifiers of status. If it wasn't the iPhone, it would be the brand of shoes they wore.
  - ntp85 4y ago
    Be that as it may, as opposed to the brand of shoes they (or their parents) bought, there is something that can be done to prevent this bullying at least.
- slowmovintarget 4y ago
  I don't think that's the right takeaway. I think the bigger issue is that we let kids create their own social structure in schools (in the US) where in-group out-group dynamics include bullying over what color your texts are, what clothes you are wearing, what songs you listen to... etc. School culture should be about academic achievement, and controlled and led by teachers. It works that way in other schools systems. Grown ups actually place limits on bad behaviors of children, with the full support of parents. In this case, that might mean not giving kids personal multimedia devices, and not permitting their use on school grounds at all.

cloogshicer 4y ago

Also, this is not about Android or iMessage specifically, it's about interoperability. WhatsApp etc. are just as guilty. Wouldn't it be amazing if you could message all your friends in a single App, without having to think about what platform they're using? If you could just see and respond to all their messages in a single thread, one for each friend? The number of messengers I have installed on my phone (and I'm forced to use regularly because they're not interoperable) is madness.

pwinnski 4y ago

To which business practice are you referring? a) developing a messaging product, then not porting it to your biggest competitor? b) declining to implement a mediocre standard at your biggest competitor's behest? The last major US carrier finally deployed RCS this year, some smaller carriers around the world still do not support it, and it notably requires carrier participation, unlike iMessage. c) ??? It isn't as if Apple is blocking communication with non-Apple devices. If Apple is somehow legally forced to spend the time and effort to implement RCS, then I would hope they would still find a way to make it clear at a glance when I'm sending a message via iMessage vs RCS or whatever else.

colinmhayes 4y ago
iMessage purposefully kneecaps communication with non-apple devices. They are trying, and succeeding, to make it extremely cumbersome to text androids. I can't blame them, it's an incredibly successful strategy that has locked me into their ecosystem at the very least. But it's also obviously anti-competitive.
- pwinnski 4y ago
  I'm not seeing it. I can text phones running Android just fine. I can't use new carrier-dependent features when texting Android phones, but Verizon Android users couldn't use those new features either until a couple of months ago, so I'm not sure how upset I should be about Apple still not supporting that. I don't think I would call it "cumbersome," let alone "extremely cumbersome." I see no artificial restrictions on communicating with Android devices. Nothing is blocked, nothing is available but restricted, so I don't think "kneecapped" is the right word here. They are not investing the effort to support a new thing, Google's umpteenth effort at messaging, which requires carrier dependence and undermines end-to-end encryption. Some people might find that unfortunate, but I don't think "refusing to implement new service" is the same as "kneecapping communication," personally.
  - colinmhayes 4y ago
    > I can text phones running Android just fine. I don't agree. Waiting ten plus seconds for each text to send is not a viable way to have a conversation. Anything beyond 5 or so texts becomes unbearbale.