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Ask HN: Experiences of UK freelancers working with US clients?

8 points by Chris_Newton 4y ago

Has anyone here had experience they’d be willing to share of a US client outsourcing development work to a UK freelancer or a small group/agency based in the UK? It seems like financially it could be a big win for everyone because UK market rates are so much lower than US ones. There are inevitably a few complications with an international relationship, but the time zones are close enough to communicate reasonably when necessary, and so far the legal/tax/insurance side looks like there would be slight overheads but nothing prohibitive. Someone from the US mailed me in the UK about this after I posted on the HN freelancer thread last month and I was speaking with someone else yesterday who had done it once before, so now I’m thinking there might be some very good opportunities in this area that are perhaps being overlooked because most of us haven’t done much trans-Atlantic networking.

gregjor 4y ago
US companies hire freelancers in other countries all the time, nothing unusual about that. English-speaking usually preferred so Brits have that advantage. You might get questions or objections around timezones and taxes, so have answers ready. In general as long as the relationship clearly meets IRS rules that distinguish employees from contractors there’s no US tax liability for the hiring company. Expect some customers to offer local (UK) rates rather than US rates. US companies outsource to India to save money. How much you can charge will depend on the skills and experience you bring and price relative to US freelancers.
- Chris_Newton 4y ago
  Thanks for sharing. It’s interesting that both replies so far have played down the financial aspect. I’d find it strange if a US-based client expected me/us to do a project for them at typical UK freelancer rates. There’s little reason to take on all the extra risks and overheads that would come with the international relationship if the fees weren’t significantly higher as well. Looking at the recent threads about rates here on HN, it seems rates of $10K-15K per week are not unusual for good freelance devs in the US, but half of that would be doing relatively well for most freelancers in the UK so there’s definitely room for both sides to win financially.
  - gregjor 4y ago
    Take what you read about freelancer rates online with a grain of salt. $10k/wk is $250/hr, at the high end of US freelancer rates. Some freelancers do get such rates but the US median is more like $60-$80/hr for typical software development. I’ve freelanced for US companies for 15 years while traveling all over the world and no customer ever cared where I live as long as I answer their messages promptly. Companies outsource overseas mainly to save money. They may do it because they can’t get US-based employees or freelancers. If they have to pay US rates for foreign contractors they will prefer to hire Americans. The unfilled demand here is for experienced senior people, so if you can position yourself as well above average you can charge more. Hiring freelancers overseas doesn’t present any actual new risk or overhead to either party. Companies may imagine it does out of ignorance or inexperience. Hiring foreign employees does create tax and labor law compliance issues, which is why outsourcing to freelancers and overseas contract firms is so popular.
    - Chris_Newton 4y ago
      The unfilled demand here is for experienced senior people, so if you can position yourself as well above average you can charge more. This is the bracket I’m most interested in myself: people who are sufficiently skilled and experienced that you can send them a spec for something you need to build, communicate further as needed during development, and then expect to have a good product delivered when they’re done.
      - gregjor 4y ago
        Yeah that’s what we all wish for. In real life customers rarely have the ability to write a complete and consistent spec. That’s why we have iterative development and agile. The model I use is much more incremental, with a list of clear deliverables and expected cost. Work with customer to define requirements, write those down with estimates, agree, deliver, review, repeat. My customers see constant progress and can change direction at any time, they never owe me so much money I would suffer if they don’t pay. If you try to freelance with the waterfall/BDUF method you describe you’ll run into problems.
- yamrzou 4y ago
  > US companies hire freelancers in other countries all the time Any suggestion where I can find such jobs?
  - gregjor 4y ago
    You find then the same way you find any freelance work: contacts and networking, advertising yourself, marketing. You can work through an agency like I do. TopTal is another option, and you can find many companies with the same outsourcing firm/contract shop business model.
lucozade 4y ago
It's reasonably common TBH. From a practicality POV, if the client is < 6-7 hrs behind it's generally fine. I've done a lot of work with east coast and Texas without much difficultly as long as you're willing to move your work day back a bit. If they're on the west, it's pretty tough. Currently, you might get some joy using a cost argument as GBP is so poor. Generally, it doesn't really fly though; there are much cheaper places than the UK for general development. In my experience, there's more mileage from specialist experience. In my case finance but I could imagine it's true for, say, biochem or high performance vehicles too.
- Chris_Newton 4y ago
  Thanks for the reply. How do potential clients and freelancers generally find each other across the Atlantic, in your experience? I’ve seen a little interest in the idea via international sites I visit like HN and Reddit, but being in the UK means most of my professional network tends to be based in the UK as well.

Chris_Newton 4y ago

In real life customers rarely have the ability to write a complete and consistent spec. That’s why we have iterative development and agile. Well, yes, that’s the “communicate further as needed” part, isn’t it? :-)

gregjor 4y ago
Maybe. You and the customer may have very different expectations about communication. The number one complaint I hear from my customers is the last guy/firm stopped communicating, or took days to answer emails. The second most common complaint I hear is that the last guy didn’t listen to what the customer actually wanted. Customers ask for solutions to business problems. Freelancers too often think the customer is asking for thousands of lines of React code.
- Chris_Newton 4y ago
  Sure, though all of this doesn’t seem any different to other freelance development work. Communication has always been key in client relationships. My intended point was just that I’m talking about the level of freelancer with enough skill and experience to get a good job done themselves and with minimal disruption or drama. That kind of person isn’t likely to be charging sub-£500 day rates over here so I’d be very surprised if they were charging sub-$500 rates across the pond.
  - gregjor 4y ago
    $500/day is about $62/hr, assuming 8 hrs/day. That’s in the median range for US freelancers. You can find people charging quite a bit less on sites like Upwork and Fiverr (many of them in low cost-of-living countries). $250+/hr is at the high end, though I know freelancers getting that rate, and I sometimes get that rate for specialized or emergency work. Freelancers I know with similar experience/skills (I have 40 years programming experience) get $100-$200 per hour consistently with US companies. One friend specializes in server/network security and gets $225/hr consistently. I find I get better-quality customers with a higher than median rate. Depending on the niche you specialize in you have to find a rate that advertises your competence without going so high you exclude most customers. I prefer not to work hourly, and I never take on big fixed-fee projects. My niche is taking over the big fixed-fee projects that fail (as they seem to most of the time). I charge by deliverable unless the customer can’t handle that and wants to go hourly. Even when they want to pay hourly I’m giving them binding estimates for specific deliverables and tasks so it works out the same. I have worked through a US-based agency since 2014, they take care of contracts/legal, billing and payment, and marketing for 15% of gross. They get better rates than I was getting on my own before signing up with them so it works out.