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I think addiction is it's own thing -- which is not about a lack of pleasure either. The main thing I think is missing from the OP (which I liked very much) is

I think addiction is it's own thing -- which is not about a lack of pleasure either. The main thing I think is missing from the OP (which I liked very much) is discussion of the concept of meaning. (and perhaps social connection). I think what most "frog-eaters" are missing is meaning, not pleasure. People will gladly do hard things that seem meaningful. I think addiction is primarily about a lack of meaning (and social connection) as well -- rather than being about a surfeit of "pleasure" or lack of "discipline". It's an attempt to deal with a lack of meaning. (It is noteable to me that you point out that your 12-16 hours a day of playing, while (you claim) was "pleasurable", was not in fact "anything meaningful"). I think OP is really talking about a lack of meaning, control, and social connection in our lives. It's this same lack that is part of what leads to addiction. And in fact the solution is not "just try harder to do the things that seem meaningless and without joy, you need more discipline" -- that's the message I get from OP, and I think in fact it applies to addiction too. "Trying harder to be more disciplined" is not a great strategy for escaping addiction. > But it takes a lot of work to be satisfied with their relationship and their pond, because they don’t get enough love to fill their hearts or enough fish to fill their bellies. So they end up reading articles about how to love things they don’t love that much and how to feel full without eating enough. This seems so relevant to addiction to me.

istinetz 4y ago
>I think OP is really talking about a lack of meaning, control, and social connection in our lives. That is indeed a much more defensible thesis. But to do anything meaningful, you need to eat a bunch of frogs - to build a rocket, you need to call and compare suppliers, manage accounting, etc. If you avoided all of that annoying stuff, you would find yourself, years later, with very pretty blueprints and no rocket.
- jrochkind1 4y ago
  I'm not sure about that. Or at least I'm not sure it requires any one person to spend more than a small portion of their time doing anything that feels like eating frogs. But mainly, I think the basic thesis is about how we diagnose our dissatisfaction. The very common way is what you seem to be suggesting: You need to get better at doing hard things, it's your fault for being lazy. How do you expect to be able to do anything worthwhile if you are so bad at doing hard things? That is the common perspective. The OP's suggestion (tweaked a bit by me to have meaning) is that this is all wrong: If your life is mostly composed of things that are unpleasant, lacking meaning, control, and social connection, of COURSE they will be hard to get done and burn you out, and it's not your fault. The solution, if you can find a way to do it, is to increase the meaning, control, and social connection in your life -- tasks will not feel as unpleasant if in a framework of meaning, control, and social connection. The problem is not your lack of discipline, it's that you are not getting enough meaning, control, and social connection in your life. (Granted, it's not necessarily simple what to do about this, especially when it's how our society is set up). But I'm curious, if you feel like sharing (or if not these are just rhetorical for other readers, no problem), as to your personal anecdotal experience with the problem with computer games. (which I'd call an "addiction" from my experience, but you may or may not). How did you get out of it? Or are you out of it or still struggling? In what ways has it been about discipline and trying harder? In what ways has it been connected to meaning, control, and social connection in other parts of your life? Has the theory that your problem is with discipline and procrastination and just not trying enough been useful to solving the problem? If not, are you willing to consider a different theory/framework? What things in your life give you meaning, control, and social connection, do you feel your life is full of those? (I do not, personally, I'm having problems with the lack of those and am not sure what to do about it).
- MetaWhirledPeas 4y ago
  > That is indeed a much more defensible thesis. But to do anything meaningful, you need to eat a bunch of frogs - to build a rocket, you need to call and compare suppliers, manage accounting, etc. If you avoided all of that annoying stuff, you would find yourself, years later, with very pretty blueprints and no rocket. I do think there's a certain audience that needs to hear that, specifically the do-nothing crowd or someone (like your former self perhaps) whose life is dominated by bad habits. I think the article is addressing the other side of the pendulum. There are plenty of people who are not addicted to some sort of obvious time waste, but they are addicted to self-flagellation.
foobiekr 4y ago
There is no actual meaning, though. Just what you can pretend is meaningful for awhile.

istinetz 4y ago

>I think OP is really talking about a lack of meaning, control, and social connection in our lives. That is indeed a much more defensible thesis. But to do anything meaningful, you need to eat a bunch of frogs - to build a rocket, you need to call and compare suppliers, manage accounting, etc. If you avoided all of that annoying stuff, you would find yourself, years later, with very pretty blueprints and no rocket.

jrochkind1 4y ago
I'm not sure about that. Or at least I'm not sure it requires any one person to spend more than a small portion of their time doing anything that feels like eating frogs. But mainly, I think the basic thesis is about how we diagnose our dissatisfaction. The very common way is what you seem to be suggesting: You need to get better at doing hard things, it's your fault for being lazy. How do you expect to be able to do anything worthwhile if you are so bad at doing hard things? That is the common perspective. The OP's suggestion (tweaked a bit by me to have meaning) is that this is all wrong: If your life is mostly composed of things that are unpleasant, lacking meaning, control, and social connection, of COURSE they will be hard to get done and burn you out, and it's not your fault. The solution, if you can find a way to do it, is to increase the meaning, control, and social connection in your life -- tasks will not feel as unpleasant if in a framework of meaning, control, and social connection. The problem is not your lack of discipline, it's that you are not getting enough meaning, control, and social connection in your life. (Granted, it's not necessarily simple what to do about this, especially when it's how our society is set up). But I'm curious, if you feel like sharing (or if not these are just rhetorical for other readers, no problem), as to your personal anecdotal experience with the problem with computer games. (which I'd call an "addiction" from my experience, but you may or may not). How did you get out of it? Or are you out of it or still struggling? In what ways has it been about discipline and trying harder? In what ways has it been connected to meaning, control, and social connection in other parts of your life? Has the theory that your problem is with discipline and procrastination and just not trying enough been useful to solving the problem? If not, are you willing to consider a different theory/framework? What things in your life give you meaning, control, and social connection, do you feel your life is full of those? (I do not, personally, I'm having problems with the lack of those and am not sure what to do about it).
MetaWhirledPeas 4y ago
> That is indeed a much more defensible thesis. But to do anything meaningful, you need to eat a bunch of frogs - to build a rocket, you need to call and compare suppliers, manage accounting, etc. If you avoided all of that annoying stuff, you would find yourself, years later, with very pretty blueprints and no rocket. I do think there's a certain audience that needs to hear that, specifically the do-nothing crowd or someone (like your former self perhaps) whose life is dominated by bad habits. I think the article is addressing the other side of the pendulum. There are plenty of people who are not addicted to some sort of obvious time waste, but they are addicted to self-flagellation.

foobiekr 4y ago

There is no actual meaning, though. Just what you can pretend is meaningful for awhile.