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Hating Steve Jobs fits tidily in the Anti-Apple rhetoric: which started precisely when they were pulled into the smartphone wars. When I look at the criticisms

by quitit 4y ago

Hating Steve Jobs fits tidily in the Anti-Apple rhetoric: which started precisely when they were pulled into the smartphone wars. When I look at the criticisms of Steve Jobs or Apple, I look at it in context of the life of people and other businesses, and it takes a lot of double standards to make the argument land one way “he’s satan” or the other “he’s god’s gift”. It's why when I hear Steve Jobs/Apple is evil, I hold it with the same credibility as people that say Steve Jobs/Apple are the greatest. I.E. With no credibility whatsoever.

elliekelly 4y ago
This is really ridiculous. I am definitely someone who would fall into the category of “zealous Apple fan” but Steve Jobs was clearly an asshole of the highest order. Read the Walter Isaacson biography or his daughter’s memoir, Small Fry. Lisa Brennan Jobs has no reason to peddle “anti-Apple rhetoric”. She has a vested interest in the opposite! But her book tells her story about growing up with a massive asshole for a father.
- quitit 4y ago
  - junon 4y ago
    This isn't how dialog on Hacker News works.
    - quitit 4y ago
      I see you write this a lot. You also spend a lot of time throwing stones from your glasshouse. Change comes from within.
      - junon 4y ago
        I've said it exactly twice over the entire lifetime of my account. Try harder.
        quitit 4y ago
        You'll get precisely the amount of effort hypocrisy deserves, which is zero.
  - elliekelly 4y ago
    > If you can’t put everything into a tidy little black or white box, your mind explodes. You might do well to exercise your self-awareness muscles a bit more.
    - quitit 4y ago
      The problem here is that I’ve brought up a scenario: people who frame Jobs as 100% one way or another (just like some people frame Apple as one way or another.) So what do you do? Frame him as one way - in this case in a bad light. Exactly as I stated some people do. And what? You’re upset that I don’t value your opinion on the matter because you can’t process inconvenient shades of grey. Sure quote Lisa, I could come back and quote J Ive - because different people have had different experiences with him. It merely proves that shades of grey exist. Still you seem incapable of seeing that people have different views of him. That perhaps he was good in some ways, awful in others. Hence why I will never pay any credit to people who can’t look at, and pay appropriate credit to all of the information. Everything exists in a shade of grey. Anything else is ridiculous.
      - notacoward 4y ago
        > because different people have had different experiences with him This is true, but also highlights an important asymmetry. Somebody who is an asshole only to some people is really an asshole all the time. They're just a smart asshole, aware of the need to secure others' cooperation or more generally manage others' opinion of them. By contrast, a nice person is no worse than neutral to (within epsilon of) everyone. They don't need to manipulate others into being allies. > Everything exists in a shade of grey. Both sides, eh? Even grey has different shades. Yes, we should consider all the information and reach nuanced conclusions, but there's nothing wrong with recognizing that someone's "default setting" was to treat others poorly and that others should not try to emulate them. The "brilliant asshole" archetype, of which Jobs was very much an exemplar, has done immeasurable harm to our industry, and a few stealth-PR "revelations" don't change that.
        quitit 4y ago

by quitit 4y ago

elliekelly 4y ago

This is really ridiculous. I am definitely someone who would fall into the category of “zealous Apple fan” but Steve Jobs was clearly an asshole of the highest order. Read the Walter Isaacson biography or his daughter’s memoir, Small Fry. Lisa Brennan Jobs has no reason to peddle “anti-Apple rhetoric”. She has a vested interest in the opposite! But her book tells her story about growing up with a massive asshole for a father.

quitit 4y ago
- junon 4y ago
  This isn't how dialog on Hacker News works.
  - quitit 4y ago
    I see you write this a lot. You also spend a lot of time throwing stones from your glasshouse. Change comes from within.
    - junon 4y ago
      I've said it exactly twice over the entire lifetime of my account. Try harder.
      - quitit 4y ago
        You'll get precisely the amount of effort hypocrisy deserves, which is zero.
- elliekelly 4y ago
  > If you can’t put everything into a tidy little black or white box, your mind explodes. You might do well to exercise your self-awareness muscles a bit more.
  - quitit 4y ago
    The problem here is that I’ve brought up a scenario: people who frame Jobs as 100% one way or another (just like some people frame Apple as one way or another.) So what do you do? Frame him as one way - in this case in a bad light. Exactly as I stated some people do. And what? You’re upset that I don’t value your opinion on the matter because you can’t process inconvenient shades of grey. Sure quote Lisa, I could come back and quote J Ive - because different people have had different experiences with him. It merely proves that shades of grey exist. Still you seem incapable of seeing that people have different views of him. That perhaps he was good in some ways, awful in others. Hence why I will never pay any credit to people who can’t look at, and pay appropriate credit to all of the information. Everything exists in a shade of grey. Anything else is ridiculous.
    - notacoward 4y ago
      > because different people have had different experiences with him This is true, but also highlights an important asymmetry. Somebody who is an asshole only to some people is really an asshole all the time. They're just a smart asshole, aware of the need to secure others' cooperation or more generally manage others' opinion of them. By contrast, a nice person is no worse than neutral to (within epsilon of) everyone. They don't need to manipulate others into being allies. > Everything exists in a shade of grey. Both sides, eh? Even grey has different shades. Yes, we should consider all the information and reach nuanced conclusions, but there's nothing wrong with recognizing that someone's "default setting" was to treat others poorly and that others should not try to emulate them. The "brilliant asshole" archetype, of which Jobs was very much an exemplar, has done immeasurable harm to our industry, and a few stealth-PR "revelations" don't change that.
      - quitit 4y ago