6 ms·

Who controls the Internet? And should they? (2021)

160 points by pabs3 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
robertlagrant 4y ago
I'm in the UK and I don't recognise what's being said there about a child safe internet you can opt out of.
- matt-p 4y ago
  Exactly, it doesn't exist yet and im extremely sceptical it ever would. It makes me lose trust in the rest of the article. Shame.
- Semaphor 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_blocking_in_the_United_Kingdom#ISP_Default_network_blocking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_blocking_in_the_United_Kin...
  - cs02rm0 4y ago
    And, of course, they're not stopping. In Liz Truss' first PMQs yesterday one of the questions was on pushing for a return of the online safety bill for further "regulation" of the internet, which Truss said is going to come back, for the under 18s of course. https://youtu.be/1ZCTQwljRqs?t=3428 https://youtu.be/1ZCTQwljRqs?t=3428
- squigg 4y ago
  Exactly - there is no default blocking of adult material in the UK, it's scaremongering based on proposed legislation that will probably never make it to the statute books. Some ISPs and telcos have implemented their own systems to protect children, which is a policy matter for them and them alone. There are plenty of ISPs who give you a raw unfiltered Internet. As a result of this inaccuracy, it weakens the rest of the talk for me - how much else is being made up?
  - claudiawerner 4y ago
    >it's scaremongering based on proposed legislation that will probably never make it to the statute books. As someone following this horrendous bill, can you tell me what gives you that impression, given that it's passed two readings in the Commons and HL doesn't seem to be particularly vocal about slowing it down?
  - Semaphor 4y ago
    So the wikipedia article [0] is wrong? It says the big 4 (TalkTalk, Sky, BT and Virgin) all implemented it. Or do you say that because some tiny ISPs don’t that it’s scaremongering? [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_blocking_in_the_United_Kingdom#ISP_Default_network_blocking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_blocking_in_the_United_Kin...
  - Crosseye_Jack 4y ago
    They were told by the goverment "If you don't do it on your own, we will make you do it", so the big ISPs did (BT, Virgin, Sky, TalkTalk). This was back in 2012. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/parents-asked-if-adult-websites-should-be-blocked https://www.gov.uk/government/news/parents-asked-if-adult-we... > But ministers have always been clear that if industry did not go far enough or fast enough, the government would consider further action - including potentially regulation. The filter is turned on by default from the biggest ISPs however each one of them asks if you would like to disable it during the onboarding process. Same goes for mobile internet, the only diffence there is if you are using PAYG you have to validate your age via a credit card or using a form of ID at your providers local store.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  All internet access on consumer-grade mobile plans is restricted by default and you have to explicitly opt-out of the filtering.
wbear 4y ago
enjoyed the article, i wonder if the internet will become more or less regressive as time goes on.
- tolkienfanatic 4y ago
  The answer is yes.
blueflow 4y ago
Are Google, Facebook, Apple and Microsoft "The Internet"? Why not Cogent, Verizon, AT&T, Level 3 or other 1-Tiers like them? This does not touch that all of them need to bow to the local legislation.
- bombcar 4y ago
  For “users” yeah, they’re basically the internet. If you don’t have your own ASN you’re just renting someone else’s access, so there’s an easy answer - they control your access and could cut it off if they wanted.
  - jaywalk 4y ago
    Having your own ASN doesn't mean a whole lot on it's own.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Each step higher on the chain gets you closer to terms of service that say "if it's legal, you're ok".
      - m348e912 4y ago
        If it's legal, you're okay. I like how you stated this. Conversely as you drop down the consumer chain to lets say a free service (eg twitter) the terms of service becomes markedly more complex and onerous.
jaywalk 4y ago
No mention of Cloudflare or Amazon, who arguably control more of the Internet than any of the entities listed in the article. Definitely more than any of the other corporations listed.
- hulitu 4y ago
  No mention of other facts which he should know if he worked for intelligence services (DE-CIX).
- praveen9920 4y ago
  Technically cloud flare and aws provides tools for internet. I don’t know much about cloud flare but at least aws has a solid way to contact them in case of issues, except when Amazon thinks you are fraud, in which case you are banned forever
  - As_You_Wish 4y ago
    How are you banned forever? Can't you just buy another computer, get another connection to the internet, and get around the ban? Or do they ban by credit card? Or does that just mean the particular domain name is banned? I've got around many a ban by just switching out my computer and getting a new internet connection. Just curious.
hypertele-Xii 4y ago
"The Internet" is just other peoples' computers. Who controls yours?
- hulitu 4y ago
  Pegasus ?
- blooalien 4y ago
  "The Internet" is just everyone's computers (all those who are connected to the Internet at least, including yours and mine). It's a "network of networks". This is just a fact that most folks have either forgotten, or were never taught in the first place, and your ISP doesn't really want you to know or remember what the Internet really is, because then you'd know how badly you're being "shafted" by most of the ISPs out there these days.
  - Bakary 4y ago
    I understand the idea but what are you proposing we do?
  - hypertele-Xii 4y ago
    I have a 1 megabit line for free, as per by Finnish law, so I certainly don't feel being shafted over here :)
chasd00 4y ago
The BGP admins control the Internet. When they make an "oopsie" entire nations loose access until the same admins fix it.
TrueSlacker0 4y ago
"This means 1) they have these kangaroo courts and 2) they’re moving more and more control to these kangaroo courts." This seems to sum up a lot of issues with the "internet"
jart 4y ago
I like Bert Hubert's writing because he always comes across as someone who's unbiased and genuinely cares. One thing I'm surprised he didn't mention is how large corporations operate their own private internets in basically the same way as countries like China and North Korea. Why wouldn't they? It's how the ARPAnet used to work. They only let scientists, engineers, and university students use the thing. I'm sure it was a much more pleasant environment than the spam hellscape of the modern public net. So obviously every corporate and national community who shares the same dream is going to try and escape it. Where is it written that private internets are perfectly normal when a corporation does it, but evil when a country does too? Some are certainly guilty of mismanagement, but I wouldn't judge their motivations, or say they're "controlling" what they're trying to escape.
- Ygg2 4y ago
  > Where is it written that private internets are perfectly normal when a corporation does it, but evil when a country does too? The impact is different*, scale is different, and countries doing it have track record of using it to hide their misdeeds. *It's generally ok if you build a wall around your property. Not so much if a country does it.
  - jaywalk 4y ago
    In reality, corporations hold just as much if not more power over the Internet than governments. Even though a corporation can't physically lock you up, they can (and have, many times) give you a virtual "death penalty" if they don't like you for whatever reason. This is not OK, and "but private companies can do what they want" really needs to be rethought to reflect reality. We have governments essentially using corporations to get around their own legal restrictions.
  - seydor 4y ago
    > countries doing it have track record of using it to hide their misdeeds. And companies don't? Internet companies are media, so their function is not neutral to the existence and function of states. Constitutions all around the world have specific "free press" provisions because the press is not "just another private business" but it has very real consequences for the existence of states. So do tech companies today, but they are untouchable, they enjoy even more protections than free press. We still live with memories of the liberal internet of the '90s (even though we know it's long gone) and we stick to this romantic view of the intent of tech companies. The scale of those companies is bigger than indivudual states so i dont think the comparison is apt either.
CydeWeys 4y ago
Ctrl-F ICANN ... 0 results?! For as long as this blog post is, it doesn't seem very comprehensive.
- gumby 4y ago
  That’s not what the essay or talk is about. It’s about state censorship amd comtrol.
  - guestbest 4y ago
    Comtrol seems so good it should not have been a typo. Dot com is still the premiere domain suffix despite all trends otherwise
- kelthuzad 4y ago
  That's exactly the very first I thing thought and did as well, I love hackernews.
throwaway14356 4y ago
What an overly polite article. Kaczynski would not approve.
xwdv 4y ago
One company controls the internet more than any other: Cloudflare.
- deepdriver 4y ago
  They shield, and therefore effectively man-in-the-middle, roughly 20% of all websites on the Internet: https://backlinko.com/cloudflare-users https://backlinko.com/cloudflare-users
  - xwdv 4y ago
    This is incredible power.
Crosseye_Jack 4y ago
> the weird thing is if you want to turn off this child safe internet in the UK, you get a letter and they sent you this letter that tells you, look, you opted out of the filtering. Apparently you want to look at adult material. I've opted out of these filters ever since they have been in place, Most providers will ask you during sign up if you wanted them on or off, I've always turned them off on day one. Since these filters have been in place I have been with (Who have the filters) Virgin Media, TalkTalk, Sky, 3 (Mobile internet) and I have never once recieved a letter from my ISP that tells me that I have opted out of the adult content filtering.
marc_rich 4y ago
Rackedup 4y ago
Governments control everything.... they are slowly trying to block crypto too. The Internet in 20 years will suck even more (they don't really like free speech even if they claim they do). Edit: Since HN doesn't allow me to reply to the child comment because "I'm posting too quickly", here is the reply to CharlesW. Stealing is already illegal.... I like how they don't know how to use current laws and flood us with new ones to make their job easier... The truth is that they think that Crypto-currencies are a threat to USD and are trying to stop them. The least they could do is destroy one law every time they add one. His reply was "CharlesW 40 minutes ago | parent | next [–] > Governments control everything.... they are slowly trying to block crypto too. I'm always amazed that anyone thought cryptocurrencies would somehow be the one form of currency that wouldn't be regulated. It's clear that crypto can't self-regulate, and continues to actively hurt lots of people. As of July, $1.9 billion in crypto has been "stolen" — up 60% from a year ago¹, in quotes because we know a good percentage of these were inside jobs."
- CharlesW 4y ago
  > Governments control everything.... they are slowly trying to block crypto too. I'm always amazed that anyone thought cryptocurrencies would somehow be the one form of currency that wouldn't be regulated. It's clear that crypto can't self-regulate, and continues to actively hurt lots of people. As of July, $1.9 billion in crypto has been "stolen" — up 60% from a year ago¹, in quotes because we know a good percentage of these were inside jobs. ¹ https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/crypto-crime-midyear-update-2022/ https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/crypto-crime-midyear-up...
  - As_You_Wish 4y ago
    >I'm always amazed that anyone thought cryptocurrencies would somehow be the one form of currency that wouldn't be regulated. Right. Me too. If a government bans it, like USA or Australia or whatever, then that's that. Sure you can still use it, but you can also not stop for stop signs or you can sell meth or you can not pay income taxes. And maybe never get caught. But if you DO get caught.... "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time." - Detective Tony Baretta
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
HereIGoAgain 4y ago
Nobody should. Beyond the server levels, ability to pay should be the only thing restricting service.. full stop!
praveen9920 4y ago
TLDR for people who didn’t read the article Who controls the internet? 1. Authoritarian govts with laws that are either agenda driven or arbitrary 2. Big Companies with kangaroo courts
openfuture 4y ago
Okay so preaching to the choir about how things are bad while almost everyone in said choir will be working full time on making things worse. Honestly it is perplexing. We have a massive incentive problem and the cheapest place to look for a solution is in cyberspace, I don't want to write this essay several times; http://datalisp.is http://datalisp.is.

160 points by pabs3 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

robertlagrant 4y ago

I'm in the UK and I don't recognise what's being said there about a child safe internet you can opt out of.

matt-p 4y ago
Exactly, it doesn't exist yet and im extremely sceptical it ever would. It makes me lose trust in the rest of the article. Shame.
Semaphor 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_blocking_in_the_United_Kingdom#ISP_Default_network_blocking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_blocking_in_the_United_Kin...
- cs02rm0 4y ago
  And, of course, they're not stopping. In Liz Truss' first PMQs yesterday one of the questions was on pushing for a return of the online safety bill for further "regulation" of the internet, which Truss said is going to come back, for the under 18s of course. https://youtu.be/1ZCTQwljRqs?t=3428 https://youtu.be/1ZCTQwljRqs?t=3428
squigg 4y ago
Exactly - there is no default blocking of adult material in the UK, it's scaremongering based on proposed legislation that will probably never make it to the statute books. Some ISPs and telcos have implemented their own systems to protect children, which is a policy matter for them and them alone. There are plenty of ISPs who give you a raw unfiltered Internet. As a result of this inaccuracy, it weakens the rest of the talk for me - how much else is being made up?
- claudiawerner 4y ago
  >it's scaremongering based on proposed legislation that will probably never make it to the statute books. As someone following this horrendous bill, can you tell me what gives you that impression, given that it's passed two readings in the Commons and HL doesn't seem to be particularly vocal about slowing it down?
- Semaphor 4y ago
  So the wikipedia article [0] is wrong? It says the big 4 (TalkTalk, Sky, BT and Virgin) all implemented it. Or do you say that because some tiny ISPs don’t that it’s scaremongering? [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_blocking_in_the_United_Kingdom#ISP_Default_network_blocking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_blocking_in_the_United_Kin...
- Crosseye_Jack 4y ago
  They were told by the goverment "If you don't do it on your own, we will make you do it", so the big ISPs did (BT, Virgin, Sky, TalkTalk). This was back in 2012. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/parents-asked-if-adult-websites-should-be-blocked https://www.gov.uk/government/news/parents-asked-if-adult-we... > But ministers have always been clear that if industry did not go far enough or fast enough, the government would consider further action - including potentially regulation. The filter is turned on by default from the biggest ISPs however each one of them asks if you would like to disable it during the onboarding process. Same goes for mobile internet, the only diffence there is if you are using PAYG you have to validate your age via a credit card or using a form of ID at your providers local store.
Nextgrid 4y ago
All internet access on consumer-grade mobile plans is restricted by default and you have to explicitly opt-out of the filtering.

wbear 4y ago

enjoyed the article, i wonder if the internet will become more or less regressive as time goes on.

tolkienfanatic 4y ago
The answer is yes.

blueflow 4y ago

Are Google, Facebook, Apple and Microsoft "The Internet"? Why not Cogent, Verizon, AT&T, Level 3 or other 1-Tiers like them? This does not touch that all of them need to bow to the local legislation.

bombcar 4y ago
For “users” yeah, they’re basically the internet. If you don’t have your own ASN you’re just renting someone else’s access, so there’s an easy answer - they control your access and could cut it off if they wanted.
- jaywalk 4y ago
  Having your own ASN doesn't mean a whole lot on it's own.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Each step higher on the chain gets you closer to terms of service that say "if it's legal, you're ok".
    - m348e912 4y ago
      If it's legal, you're okay. I like how you stated this. Conversely as you drop down the consumer chain to lets say a free service (eg twitter) the terms of service becomes markedly more complex and onerous.

jaywalk 4y ago

No mention of Cloudflare or Amazon, who arguably control more of the Internet than any of the entities listed in the article. Definitely more than any of the other corporations listed.

hulitu 4y ago
No mention of other facts which he should know if he worked for intelligence services (DE-CIX).
praveen9920 4y ago
Technically cloud flare and aws provides tools for internet. I don’t know much about cloud flare but at least aws has a solid way to contact them in case of issues, except when Amazon thinks you are fraud, in which case you are banned forever
- As_You_Wish 4y ago
  How are you banned forever? Can't you just buy another computer, get another connection to the internet, and get around the ban? Or do they ban by credit card? Or does that just mean the particular domain name is banned? I've got around many a ban by just switching out my computer and getting a new internet connection. Just curious.

hypertele-Xii 4y ago

"The Internet" is just other peoples' computers. Who controls yours?

hulitu 4y ago
Pegasus ?
blooalien 4y ago
"The Internet" is just everyone's computers (all those who are connected to the Internet at least, including yours and mine). It's a "network of networks". This is just a fact that most folks have either forgotten, or were never taught in the first place, and your ISP doesn't really want you to know or remember what the Internet really is, because then you'd know how badly you're being "shafted" by most of the ISPs out there these days.
- Bakary 4y ago
  I understand the idea but what are you proposing we do?
- hypertele-Xii 4y ago
  I have a 1 megabit line for free, as per by Finnish law, so I certainly don't feel being shafted over here :)

chasd00 4y ago

The BGP admins control the Internet. When they make an "oopsie" entire nations loose access until the same admins fix it.

TrueSlacker0 4y ago

"This means 1) they have these kangaroo courts and 2) they’re moving more and more control to these kangaroo courts." This seems to sum up a lot of issues with the "internet"

jart 4y ago

I like Bert Hubert's writing because he always comes across as someone who's unbiased and genuinely cares. One thing I'm surprised he didn't mention is how large corporations operate their own private internets in basically the same way as countries like China and North Korea. Why wouldn't they? It's how the ARPAnet used to work. They only let scientists, engineers, and university students use the thing. I'm sure it was a much more pleasant environment than the spam hellscape of the modern public net. So obviously every corporate and national community who shares the same dream is going to try and escape it. Where is it written that private internets are perfectly normal when a corporation does it, but evil when a country does too? Some are certainly guilty of mismanagement, but I wouldn't judge their motivations, or say they're "controlling" what they're trying to escape.

Ygg2 4y ago
> Where is it written that private internets are perfectly normal when a corporation does it, but evil when a country does too? The impact is different*, scale is different, and countries doing it have track record of using it to hide their misdeeds. *It's generally ok if you build a wall around your property. Not so much if a country does it.
- jaywalk 4y ago
  In reality, corporations hold just as much if not more power over the Internet than governments. Even though a corporation can't physically lock you up, they can (and have, many times) give you a virtual "death penalty" if they don't like you for whatever reason. This is not OK, and "but private companies can do what they want" really needs to be rethought to reflect reality. We have governments essentially using corporations to get around their own legal restrictions.
- seydor 4y ago
  > countries doing it have track record of using it to hide their misdeeds. And companies don't? Internet companies are media, so their function is not neutral to the existence and function of states. Constitutions all around the world have specific "free press" provisions because the press is not "just another private business" but it has very real consequences for the existence of states. So do tech companies today, but they are untouchable, they enjoy even more protections than free press. We still live with memories of the liberal internet of the '90s (even though we know it's long gone) and we stick to this romantic view of the intent of tech companies. The scale of those companies is bigger than indivudual states so i dont think the comparison is apt either.

CydeWeys 4y ago

Ctrl-F ICANN ... 0 results?! For as long as this blog post is, it doesn't seem very comprehensive.

gumby 4y ago
That’s not what the essay or talk is about. It’s about state censorship amd comtrol.
- guestbest 4y ago
  Comtrol seems so good it should not have been a typo. Dot com is still the premiere domain suffix despite all trends otherwise
kelthuzad 4y ago
That's exactly the very first I thing thought and did as well, I love hackernews.

throwaway14356 4y ago

What an overly polite article. Kaczynski would not approve.

xwdv 4y ago

One company controls the internet more than any other: Cloudflare.

deepdriver 4y ago
They shield, and therefore effectively man-in-the-middle, roughly 20% of all websites on the Internet: https://backlinko.com/cloudflare-users https://backlinko.com/cloudflare-users
- xwdv 4y ago
  This is incredible power.

Crosseye_Jack 4y ago

> the weird thing is if you want to turn off this child safe internet in the UK, you get a letter and they sent you this letter that tells you, look, you opted out of the filtering. Apparently you want to look at adult material. I've opted out of these filters ever since they have been in place, Most providers will ask you during sign up if you wanted them on or off, I've always turned them off on day one. Since these filters have been in place I have been with (Who have the filters) Virgin Media, TalkTalk, Sky, 3 (Mobile internet) and I have never once recieved a letter from my ISP that tells me that I have opted out of the adult content filtering.

marc_rich 4y ago

Rackedup 4y ago

Governments control everything.... they are slowly trying to block crypto too. The Internet in 20 years will suck even more (they don't really like free speech even if they claim they do). Edit: Since HN doesn't allow me to reply to the child comment because "I'm posting too quickly", here is the reply to CharlesW. Stealing is already illegal.... I like how they don't know how to use current laws and flood us with new ones to make their job easier... The truth is that they think that Crypto-currencies are a threat to USD and are trying to stop them. The least they could do is destroy one law every time they add one. His reply was "CharlesW 40 minutes ago | parent | next [–] > Governments control everything.... they are slowly trying to block crypto too. I'm always amazed that anyone thought cryptocurrencies would somehow be the one form of currency that wouldn't be regulated. It's clear that crypto can't self-regulate, and continues to actively hurt lots of people. As of July, $1.9 billion in crypto has been "stolen" — up 60% from a year ago¹, in quotes because we know a good percentage of these were inside jobs."

CharlesW 4y ago
> Governments control everything.... they are slowly trying to block crypto too. I'm always amazed that anyone thought cryptocurrencies would somehow be the one form of currency that wouldn't be regulated. It's clear that crypto can't self-regulate, and continues to actively hurt lots of people. As of July, $1.9 billion in crypto has been "stolen" — up 60% from a year ago¹, in quotes because we know a good percentage of these were inside jobs. ¹ https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/crypto-crime-midyear-update-2022/ https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/crypto-crime-midyear-up...
- As_You_Wish 4y ago
  >I'm always amazed that anyone thought cryptocurrencies would somehow be the one form of currency that wouldn't be regulated. Right. Me too. If a government bans it, like USA or Australia or whatever, then that's that. Sure you can still use it, but you can also not stop for stop signs or you can sell meth or you can not pay income taxes. And maybe never get caught. But if you DO get caught.... "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time." - Detective Tony Baretta

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

HereIGoAgain 4y ago

Nobody should. Beyond the server levels, ability to pay should be the only thing restricting service.. full stop!

praveen9920 4y ago

TLDR for people who didn’t read the article Who controls the internet? 1. Authoritarian govts with laws that are either agenda driven or arbitrary 2. Big Companies with kangaroo courts

openfuture 4y ago

Okay so preaching to the choir about how things are bad while almost everyone in said choir will be working full time on making things worse. Honestly it is perplexing. We have a massive incentive problem and the cheapest place to look for a solution is in cyberspace, I don't want to write this essay several times; http://datalisp.is http://datalisp.is.