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> Steve, like any other human, is a shade of grey. Not the lightest of shades though, to many people? I'm sure there is good in Alex Jones. It is very well bu
by dspillett 4y ago
> Steve, like any other human, is a shade of grey.
Not the lightest of shades though, to many people?
I'm sure there is good in Alex Jones. It is very well buried if so, but it probably does exist. I still feel justified in never wanting to interact with him and wishing the rest of the world didn't have to either.
While we shouldn't be completely dogmatic and only consider someone's bad points¹, and I wouldn't say that Jobs was at all actively evil², the fact that someone isn't the blackest-of-black pantomime evil, or the gaudiest-of-gaudy moustache-twirling pantomime evil, doesn't mean we can't discuss their bad points. It might actually help other arseholes who don't realise that they are being a problem, if they see the discussion and think “hang on, I do that, maybe I'm upsetting people too, perhaps I should try a different tack”.
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[1] or conversely only their good points: Churchill was undoubtably what we needed as a prime minister during and in the run up to war, a good family man by most accounts, supported some good social reforms, ete., but he also had some questionable views on race (less so by the standards of the time than now, but still), supported the use of chemical weapons, and so forth,
[2] just a bit of an arsehole by many accounts, and presided over a company that at the time³ benefited from what we now call modern slavery
[3] and to this day doesn't have a clean record on that count
- quitit 4y agoHating Steve Jobs fits tidily in the Anti-Apple rhetoric: which started precisely when they were pulled into the smartphone wars. When I look at the criticisms of Steve Jobs or Apple, I look at it in context of the life of people and other businesses, and it takes a lot of double standards to make the argument land one way “he’s satan” or the other “he’s god’s gift”. It's why when I hear Steve Jobs/Apple is evil, I hold it with the same credibility as people that say Steve Jobs/Apple are the greatest. I.E. With no credibility whatsoever.
- elliekelly 4y agoThis is really ridiculous. I am definitely someone who would fall into the category of “zealous Apple fan” but Steve Jobs was clearly an asshole of the highest order. Read the Walter Isaacson biography or his daughter’s memoir, Small Fry. Lisa Brennan Jobs has no reason to peddle “anti-Apple rhetoric”. She has a vested interest in the opposite! But her book tells her story about growing up with a massive asshole for a father.
- quitit 4y ago
- junon 4y agoThis isn't how dialog on Hacker News works.
- quitit 4y agoI see you write this a lot. You also spend a lot of time throwing stones from your glasshouse. Change comes from within.
- elliekelly 4y ago> If you can’t put everything into a tidy little black or white box, your mind explodes. You might do well to exercise your self-awareness muscles a bit more.
- quitit 4y agoThe problem here is that I’ve brought up a scenario: people who frame Jobs as 100% one way or another (just like some people frame Apple as one way or another.) So what do you do? Frame him as one way - in this case in a bad light. Exactly as I stated some people do. And what? You’re upset that I don’t value your opinion on the matter because you can’t process inconvenient shades of grey. Sure quote Lisa, I could come back and quote J Ive - because different people have had different experiences with him. It merely proves that shades of grey exist. Still you seem incapable of seeing that people have different views of him. That perhaps he was good in some ways, awful in others. Hence why I will never pay any credit to people who can’t look at, and pay appropriate credit to all of the information. Everything exists in a shade of grey. Anything else is ridiculous.
- froggertoaster 4y agoCongrats, you just compared Steve Jobs to Alex Jones and proved the original commentor's point.
- 11101010001100 4y agoThey are both humans after all.
- dspillett 4y agoAlso to Churchill. Are you saying it is fine to talk about good things, but not bad things, in a person's make up & history? Do you feel that is particularly just/balanced/other? Balance comes from truth and acknowledging nuance, not cherry-picking either way.