7 ms·

> "Shouldn't university be about learning, and being recognised for learning." Not when it costs six figures and puts people neck-deep in debt. I want to live

> "Shouldn't university be about learning, and being recognised for learning." Not when it costs six figures and puts people neck-deep in debt. I want to live in your utopian world, where people get educations just because. We would all be better off. But the truth of the matter is, for a lot of people there are two choices after high school: A - Pay $[bignum] for education that has high employability and will give them the knowledge and qualifications necessary to find work, which is absolutely necessary if they ever hope to repay said debt. B - Pay $[bignum] for education that has low employability and will not give them any of the qualifications sought for in in-demand jobs. They will still owe $[bignum] which will compromise all other aspects of their lives. I see your line of argument a lot whenever this topic comes up. My challenge to you is: besides a lot of feel-good platitudes, how will your system work? How will people feed themselves, clothe themselves, and put a roof over their head - their head full of wonderful perspectives and understanding but no job? The "we can all get comprehensive" education idea died when education became expensive. It died when globalization squeezed the American middle class to become more desperate and ever more critically reliant on continued employment. Far from being the norm, the age of comprehensive college education was a brief blip in thousands of years of human civilization lasting no more than a few decades. The gravy train has come to a full and complete stop, and it's time for industrialized nations to clue into something: life is tough. You scramble to survive. High-minded ideology comes second to the survival of yourself and your loved ones. If, in this topsy-turvy struggle you can find time to fit in a comprehensive education. Good for you - you won. The rest of the world isn't so lucky.

bandushrew 15y ago
Education plus time to think drives innovation. In your 'real' world where everyone must frantically scamble to survive, civilization never leaves the caves. We have massive surpluses across the world, 98%R of the wealth is owned by a tiny fraction of the people, food is piled up and wasted to protect markets, and yet there are still idiots claiming that we just cannot afford to educate everyone. We cannot afford not to, if we want to survive into the 22nd century and beyond. Its not a gravy train, our surpluses drove our technological advantages, which in turn drove our surpluses.
- potatolicious 15y ago
  Don't get me wrong - I'm absolutely of the position that education can, and must be cheaper for society to function. But what should and shouldn't be is of cold comfort to someone leaving high school right now, who is forced to make this choice in a world where education is expensive. I'm sick and tired of people shaming everyone for getting a "useful" education. I'm all for education reform - note in my original post I mentioned that comprehensive education died when it got too expensive. But can we, for once, stop booing and shaming people who choose rationally within the existing system? Can we also stop giving people excuses for choosing poorly within this system? We have a society where it costs six figures to get a degree. This is a damn shame and should be fixed. But knowing this people still get degrees they can't afford, and then tell a sob story to the press about how their $100K+ degree can't find them a job. Well, shit. The solution to this problem is to make education cheaper, not to shelter and coddle people who are incapable of making a rational decision. [edit] To address your point: > "Education plus time to think drives innovation." I agree, but I do think that we are inevitably returning to a state where education plus time to think are going to become rare luxuries. Our innovation will suffer as a result - has already suffered as a result. But I don't think there's anything we can do to stop this. The US gained an incredible industrial lead over the rest of the world early on, which allowed to elevate its quality of life well beyond anything the world had seen, which in turn drove the wheels of innovation and invention. But decades of mismanagement, rampant robber-baron capitalism, and simple globalization has meant that the US middle class is gutted. It's getting more and more desperate out there - more and more people working multiple jobs, more and more people making large cutbacks to their quality of life to make ends meet. This is a vicious cycle, to be certain, but I can't see how to stop it.
ansgri 15y ago
Well, Russia is(was?) that utopian world where you can get education comparable to MIT for free, "just because". Everything changes, though.
kalleboo 15y ago
> I want to live in your utopian world, where people get educations just because. You're welcome, we call it Sweden. Higher education is free (before this year it was even free for non-swedes), and you get a stipend to pay for food/rent as long as you keep passing courses. I know someone who's about to get a physics degree and is going to go into bartending afterwards since it seems more fun. I also know people who get education after education (stuff like psychology, history) while they figure out what they want to do.
- lucasjung 15y ago
  Does everyone get this free education, or just some people? I grew up in Germany, where only a small percentage of students got into Gymnasium (as opposed to more trade-oriented high schools), and only a small percentage of them got into universities. I'm not saying this is necessarily bad, just that it doesn't line up with the idea of a utopian world where everyone gets a free university education. >Higher education is free...and you get a stipend to pay for food/rent as long as you keep passing courses. This actually created a huge problem in Berlin when I was living there. Being in the university system was such a good deal that nobody wanted to leave. Students would change majors every few years to avoid graduating for as long as possible, sitting through courses they didn't really care about because it was easier than graduating and working for a living. Classes became terribly over-crowded: when walking around the campus area, you could tell the students apart from people who just happened to be passing through, because the students all carried folding chairs with them because none of the classrooms had enough seats. To compensate, they had to dramatically reduce the quotas for incoming students, so the students who were loitering in the university system were effectively blocking younger students from ever having the opportunity to get a degree. I don't know if/how they ever fixed this problem, but I'm sure it's very hard to fix short of putting a hard limit (e.g. 4 or 5 years) on receiving the stipend.
  - kalleboo 15y ago
    > Does everyone get this free education, or just some people? Yeah, there's room for everyone. Class sizes are limited so acceptance into programs is merit-based (high school grades or a special test), but worst case you just have to settle for a less prestigious school. There is actually a time limit to the stipend (IIRC 300 weeks of study) to avoid abuse, but it's also dependent on you actually passing courses.

bandushrew 15y ago

Education plus time to think drives innovation. In your 'real' world where everyone must frantically scamble to survive, civilization never leaves the caves. We have massive surpluses across the world, 98%R of the wealth is owned by a tiny fraction of the people, food is piled up and wasted to protect markets, and yet there are still idiots claiming that we just cannot afford to educate everyone. We cannot afford not to, if we want to survive into the 22nd century and beyond. Its not a gravy train, our surpluses drove our technological advantages, which in turn drove our surpluses.

potatolicious 15y ago
Don't get me wrong - I'm absolutely of the position that education can, and must be cheaper for society to function. But what should and shouldn't be is of cold comfort to someone leaving high school right now, who is forced to make this choice in a world where education is expensive. I'm sick and tired of people shaming everyone for getting a "useful" education. I'm all for education reform - note in my original post I mentioned that comprehensive education died when it got too expensive. But can we, for once, stop booing and shaming people who choose rationally within the existing system? Can we also stop giving people excuses for choosing poorly within this system? We have a society where it costs six figures to get a degree. This is a damn shame and should be fixed. But knowing this people still get degrees they can't afford, and then tell a sob story to the press about how their $100K+ degree can't find them a job. Well, shit. The solution to this problem is to make education cheaper, not to shelter and coddle people who are incapable of making a rational decision. [edit] To address your point: > "Education plus time to think drives innovation." I agree, but I do think that we are inevitably returning to a state where education plus time to think are going to become rare luxuries. Our innovation will suffer as a result - has already suffered as a result. But I don't think there's anything we can do to stop this. The US gained an incredible industrial lead over the rest of the world early on, which allowed to elevate its quality of life well beyond anything the world had seen, which in turn drove the wheels of innovation and invention. But decades of mismanagement, rampant robber-baron capitalism, and simple globalization has meant that the US middle class is gutted. It's getting more and more desperate out there - more and more people working multiple jobs, more and more people making large cutbacks to their quality of life to make ends meet. This is a vicious cycle, to be certain, but I can't see how to stop it.

ansgri 15y ago

Well, Russia is(was?) that utopian world where you can get education comparable to MIT for free, "just because". Everything changes, though.

kalleboo 15y ago

> I want to live in your utopian world, where people get educations just because. You're welcome, we call it Sweden. Higher education is free (before this year it was even free for non-swedes), and you get a stipend to pay for food/rent as long as you keep passing courses. I know someone who's about to get a physics degree and is going to go into bartending afterwards since it seems more fun. I also know people who get education after education (stuff like psychology, history) while they figure out what they want to do.

lucasjung 15y ago
Does everyone get this free education, or just some people? I grew up in Germany, where only a small percentage of students got into Gymnasium (as opposed to more trade-oriented high schools), and only a small percentage of them got into universities. I'm not saying this is necessarily bad, just that it doesn't line up with the idea of a utopian world where everyone gets a free university education. >Higher education is free...and you get a stipend to pay for food/rent as long as you keep passing courses. This actually created a huge problem in Berlin when I was living there. Being in the university system was such a good deal that nobody wanted to leave. Students would change majors every few years to avoid graduating for as long as possible, sitting through courses they didn't really care about because it was easier than graduating and working for a living. Classes became terribly over-crowded: when walking around the campus area, you could tell the students apart from people who just happened to be passing through, because the students all carried folding chairs with them because none of the classrooms had enough seats. To compensate, they had to dramatically reduce the quotas for incoming students, so the students who were loitering in the university system were effectively blocking younger students from ever having the opportunity to get a degree. I don't know if/how they ever fixed this problem, but I'm sure it's very hard to fix short of putting a hard limit (e.g. 4 or 5 years) on receiving the stipend.
- kalleboo 15y ago
  > Does everyone get this free education, or just some people? Yeah, there's room for everyone. Class sizes are limited so acceptance into programs is merit-based (high school grades or a special test), but worst case you just have to settle for a less prestigious school. There is actually a time limit to the stipend (IIRC 300 weeks of study) to avoid abuse, but it's also dependent on you actually passing courses.