8 ms·

Makes me think of something I always wondered; did Steve know programming? He did work at Atari right? I think I’ve always attributed Steve’s huge success to 3

Makes me think of something I always wondered; did Steve know programming? He did work at Atari right? I think I’ve always attributed Steve’s huge success to 3 things; Meeting Woz, Meeting Markkula and spending a lot of time to practise articulating himself. I must admit, I envy the man. Who doesn’t. Apple is a fantastic company and keeps releasing great products.

cma 4y ago
Woz did his big programming project at Atari.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  Jobs was an Atari technician doing board layouts and grunt work. No programming was involved. Breakout didn't have a microprocessor so Woz didn't program that either.
  - coolandsmartrr 4y ago
    IIRC, Breakout is the project that: - Jobs brought Woz over to the office at night - completed with much less electronics parts - Jobs struggled to explain the internal workings (of a schema he didn't make) - Woz was compensated less (by being told by Jobs that Atari didn't give a big bonus) - Jobs denies siphoning much of the bonus
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
pkdpic 4y ago
It's hard to really envy anyone who doesn't have a solid relationship with their kids... No judgement, its impossibly difficult but it just seems like an incredibly painful existence and it feels like that relationship might be the biggest opportunity to have a direct influence on the future most (some) of us get. But according to that punk'd biopic it seems like he got things on track near the end so hopefully it was all good. > Sent from my iPad
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > hard to really envy anyone who doesn't have a solid relationship with their kids Why not tolerate a diversity of opinions on priorities? I'm personally better off for Jobs having a different preference matrix. My kids will be as well.
  - c0nducktr 4y ago
    How is your relationship with your father?
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > How is your relationship with your father? Great. And yes, I'd resent him had he traded the weekends we spent making balsa-wood gliders, filming Star Trek home videos (paper maché + sugar against a black t-shirt + handycam) and taking desert hikes for face time in the office. But we are inarguably better off for Jobs--and countless others--having prioritised their professions over conventional needs. It simply seems a bit ruddy to footnote that sacrifice with scoffing.
      - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
        > we are inarguably better off for Jobs--and countless others--having prioritised their professions over conventional needs You don’t know the alternate reality where jobs did not do that. Perhaps another company would have done similar things or even something completely different than also improved our lives.
        johndevor 4y ago
        It also ignores the Hitler-types and their negative influence on the world (Hitler was beaten brutally by his father IIRC).
        entropicdrifter 4y ago
RajT88 4y ago
If you ask me, Woz and Jobs -- together -- both sensibilities, are the heart and soul of what makes Apple Apple. The dueling ethos live on, hopefully keeping each other in check. If we're talking about the technical and design merits of Apple devices anyways. Not the status symbol aspects.
- scarface74 4y ago
  Woz left Apple in the mid 80s. Woz’s influence on current day Apple is nil.
  - RajT88 4y ago
    And Jobs is dead. What I am suggesting is the personality types live on and continue to work together at Apple.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      So how many of the current products were influenced by Woz in 2022? How many are influenced by Jobs - the Mac, the iPad, the iPhone, the App Store? When Woz left, Apple wasn’t a major player in the tech space in the grand scheme of things. Apple became the most valuable company in the US right before Jobs passed. My first computer was an Woz inspired Apple //e. My current computer is a Jobs inspired Mac that Woz had nothing to do with.
      - RajT88 4y ago
        Whoosh
spoonjim 4y ago
If you think Steve Jobs was just some lucky huckster you will never ship a great product.
- system2 4y ago
  Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were at the right place at the right time with the right resources. Now we have the internet and everyone is connected, it is harder because of the competition.
  - spoonjim 4y ago
    Bill Gates was an insanely good programmer and Steve Jobs was an insanely good product manager. Yes they also had the right circumstances to succeed, just like J.S. Bach.
  - mandeepj 4y ago
    You think they did not have competition while IBM was the gorilla in front of them?
    - laumars 4y ago
      IBM were a mainframe company back then. Both Apple and Microsoft were already household names in the personal micro computer world before IBM entered the market. Source: I lived through that era writing software for micro computers.
      - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
        IBM was a household name in the 80s. I’m not sure which era you’re talking about, though.
        doctor_eval 4y ago
        The Apple II came out in 1977. The IBM PC in 1981. Until the PC, IBM might have been known by people but nobody had an IBM at home.
nashequilibrium 4y ago
He definitely knew how to program, just by listening him talk about it. I don't think he was a Midas but he understood it. He was really smart, listen to his lecture to MBA students in the early 90s, for a guy who never went to college, his understanding of microeconomics was amazing.
- Dracophoenix 4y ago
  Just to clarify, he did go to college (Reed), but didn't graduate.
fennecfoxy 4y ago
Afaik he did know programming at a basic level, which back in those days meant that he knew enough to get something working without all of the tools, etc that we have today. But it was Woz who was the true hardware/software talent; he spent his childhood designing processors that he didn't have the money to build. He was fascinated with circuits & electronics & processors. Steve worked at Atari but got Woz in to do the circuit for breakout, Steve had no idea how it worked and couldn't have done it himself. When Atari paid for the work he shafted Woz by giving him a _much_ smaller amount than half of what he received. Steve's skills mostly seem to have settled in the management/figurehead role. People say that he had excellent vision for design but realistically I think he had skills in none of the areas that he hired people to do and that his major skill was as company head, tying everything and everyone together into a cohesive unit. He was very demanding and threw tantrums, but that's still human; however episodes like when Woz left Apple to go and invent the universal remote, he sent a prototype to Jobs and Jobs smashed it against the wall in a rage. Dude had power trip/anger issues to the max. We can't forget that Microsoft/Bill Gates bailed Apple out at one point, too. I'd say this is likely a failing of their market at the time; Apple's market of doe eyed "it just works" fans didn't exist/wasn't large enough at that point in time. Nowadays, they don't have anything to worry about. I, Woz; Steve Wozniak's autobiography is a great read for a bit more info into Jobs. He tells it like it was, though maybe slightly muted due to the fact that the two were still friends. The official Jobs bio is just revisionist prose.
- rr3932 4y ago
  I think Steve's most important skill was the ability to say no. But even more important, was his ability to say no and that the person he said no to listened, agreed he said no, and then stopped working on the thing and tried to do something better. If you've ever worked in a large company you know how rare that is and how critical that is.
  - joelthelion 4y ago
    Saying no is overrated. I mean, of course, it's a good thing to know when to say no, if used parsimoniously. The problem is that we now have zillions of wannabee Steve Jobs who believe saying no to everything automatically makes them brilliant visionaries.
snowwrestler 4y ago
But a lot of people met Woz and Markkula during their lifetimes. And arguably Woz and Markkula had their biggest impacts in their work with Jobs. Woz in particular did a bunch of stuff after Apple and none of it was remotely as big as his role in founding Apple with Jobs. So, empirically it seems like there’s something Jobs brought to these relationships, something pretty important. But it’s hard to describe. Perhaps that is one reason people are still talking about him a decade later.

cma 4y ago

Woz did his big programming project at Atari.

kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
Jobs was an Atari technician doing board layouts and grunt work. No programming was involved. Breakout didn't have a microprocessor so Woz didn't program that either.
- coolandsmartrr 4y ago
  IIRC, Breakout is the project that: - Jobs brought Woz over to the office at night - completed with much less electronics parts - Jobs struggled to explain the internal workings (of a schema he didn't make) - Woz was compensated less (by being told by Jobs that Atari didn't give a big bonus) - Jobs denies siphoning much of the bonus
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

pkdpic 4y ago

It's hard to really envy anyone who doesn't have a solid relationship with their kids... No judgement, its impossibly difficult but it just seems like an incredibly painful existence and it feels like that relationship might be the biggest opportunity to have a direct influence on the future most (some) of us get. But according to that punk'd biopic it seems like he got things on track near the end so hopefully it was all good. > Sent from my iPad

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> hard to really envy anyone who doesn't have a solid relationship with their kids Why not tolerate a diversity of opinions on priorities? I'm personally better off for Jobs having a different preference matrix. My kids will be as well.
- c0nducktr 4y ago
  How is your relationship with your father?
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > How is your relationship with your father? Great. And yes, I'd resent him had he traded the weekends we spent making balsa-wood gliders, filming Star Trek home videos (paper maché + sugar against a black t-shirt + handycam) and taking desert hikes for face time in the office. But we are inarguably better off for Jobs--and countless others--having prioritised their professions over conventional needs. It simply seems a bit ruddy to footnote that sacrifice with scoffing.
    - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
      > we are inarguably better off for Jobs--and countless others--having prioritised their professions over conventional needs You don’t know the alternate reality where jobs did not do that. Perhaps another company would have done similar things or even something completely different than also improved our lives.
      - johndevor 4y ago
        It also ignores the Hitler-types and their negative influence on the world (Hitler was beaten brutally by his father IIRC).
        entropicdrifter 4y ago

RajT88 4y ago

If you ask me, Woz and Jobs -- together -- both sensibilities, are the heart and soul of what makes Apple Apple. The dueling ethos live on, hopefully keeping each other in check. If we're talking about the technical and design merits of Apple devices anyways. Not the status symbol aspects.

scarface74 4y ago
Woz left Apple in the mid 80s. Woz’s influence on current day Apple is nil.
- RajT88 4y ago
  And Jobs is dead. What I am suggesting is the personality types live on and continue to work together at Apple.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    So how many of the current products were influenced by Woz in 2022? How many are influenced by Jobs - the Mac, the iPad, the iPhone, the App Store? When Woz left, Apple wasn’t a major player in the tech space in the grand scheme of things. Apple became the most valuable company in the US right before Jobs passed. My first computer was an Woz inspired Apple //e. My current computer is a Jobs inspired Mac that Woz had nothing to do with.
    - RajT88 4y ago
      Whoosh

spoonjim 4y ago

If you think Steve Jobs was just some lucky huckster you will never ship a great product.

system2 4y ago
Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were at the right place at the right time with the right resources. Now we have the internet and everyone is connected, it is harder because of the competition.
- spoonjim 4y ago
  Bill Gates was an insanely good programmer and Steve Jobs was an insanely good product manager. Yes they also had the right circumstances to succeed, just like J.S. Bach.
- mandeepj 4y ago
  You think they did not have competition while IBM was the gorilla in front of them?
  - laumars 4y ago
    IBM were a mainframe company back then. Both Apple and Microsoft were already household names in the personal micro computer world before IBM entered the market. Source: I lived through that era writing software for micro computers.
    - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
      IBM was a household name in the 80s. I’m not sure which era you’re talking about, though.
      - doctor_eval 4y ago
        The Apple II came out in 1977. The IBM PC in 1981. Until the PC, IBM might have been known by people but nobody had an IBM at home.

nashequilibrium 4y ago

He definitely knew how to program, just by listening him talk about it. I don't think he was a Midas but he understood it. He was really smart, listen to his lecture to MBA students in the early 90s, for a guy who never went to college, his understanding of microeconomics was amazing.

Dracophoenix 4y ago
Just to clarify, he did go to college (Reed), but didn't graduate.

fennecfoxy 4y ago

Afaik he did know programming at a basic level, which back in those days meant that he knew enough to get something working without all of the tools, etc that we have today. But it was Woz who was the true hardware/software talent; he spent his childhood designing processors that he didn't have the money to build. He was fascinated with circuits & electronics & processors. Steve worked at Atari but got Woz in to do the circuit for breakout, Steve had no idea how it worked and couldn't have done it himself. When Atari paid for the work he shafted Woz by giving him a _much_ smaller amount than half of what he received. Steve's skills mostly seem to have settled in the management/figurehead role. People say that he had excellent vision for design but realistically I think he had skills in none of the areas that he hired people to do and that his major skill was as company head, tying everything and everyone together into a cohesive unit. He was very demanding and threw tantrums, but that's still human; however episodes like when Woz left Apple to go and invent the universal remote, he sent a prototype to Jobs and Jobs smashed it against the wall in a rage. Dude had power trip/anger issues to the max. We can't forget that Microsoft/Bill Gates bailed Apple out at one point, too. I'd say this is likely a failing of their market at the time; Apple's market of doe eyed "it just works" fans didn't exist/wasn't large enough at that point in time. Nowadays, they don't have anything to worry about. I, Woz; Steve Wozniak's autobiography is a great read for a bit more info into Jobs. He tells it like it was, though maybe slightly muted due to the fact that the two were still friends. The official Jobs bio is just revisionist prose.

rr3932 4y ago
I think Steve's most important skill was the ability to say no. But even more important, was his ability to say no and that the person he said no to listened, agreed he said no, and then stopped working on the thing and tried to do something better. If you've ever worked in a large company you know how rare that is and how critical that is.
- joelthelion 4y ago
  Saying no is overrated. I mean, of course, it's a good thing to know when to say no, if used parsimoniously. The problem is that we now have zillions of wannabee Steve Jobs who believe saying no to everything automatically makes them brilliant visionaries.

snowwrestler 4y ago

But a lot of people met Woz and Markkula during their lifetimes. And arguably Woz and Markkula had their biggest impacts in their work with Jobs. Woz in particular did a bunch of stuff after Apple and none of it was remotely as big as his role in founding Apple with Jobs. So, empirically it seems like there’s something Jobs brought to these relationships, something pretty important. But it’s hard to describe. Perhaps that is one reason people are still talking about him a decade later.