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I can buy that argument, but I’ve never seen /usr get swapped out with any modern package manager. How would that work? Or is this more theoretical? FYI “usr”

I can buy that argument, but I’ve never seen /usr get swapped out with any modern package manager. How would that work? Or is this more theoretical? FYI “usr” really means “user”. Somebody made up “unified system resources” as a backronym.

db48x 4y ago
Yea, it’s pretty funny. It used to hold the home directories, but the disk holding the OS ran out of space, so they started putting new utilities in /usr/bin. The distribution tapes they sent out to everyone who ordered a copy were made directly from the live system, so we all inherited the same quirk. We’ve moved the home directories elsewhere, and now the whole OS is climbing into /usr in order to be atomically mountable. I keep thinking of that Gilbert and Sullivan song with the line “it gradually got so!”.
- rtontic 4y ago
  Even funnier, now a lot of software pollutes your home directory with shared files and dotfiles, so that space is invaded too. I resort to creating a separate files directory, either in /files, my home directory or in /mnt/files, and store all my local files there.
  - db48x 4y ago
    I’m not as bothered about that. I do have a git repository called dotfiles with some of the more important ones. I then use GNU Stow to install them from there to their customary locations. That helps me keep them in sync across computers.
rektide 4y ago
Generally the idea is more for atomic system upgrades, and less for package managers. Why have package managers when you can just mmdebstrap a new image & try start it, but keep all your /etc and /home stuff? That's the dream. Package managers become semi-obsolete. I think there are a variety of ideas for how package managers might come into compliance & make use of this though! A lot of possibility. But the notion of OSes that can swap images, that transcend the idea of one special bucket of bits that we slowly move forward, is kind of new. Containers are 100% there, are making it clear. But the conventional OS is still lagging, learning, behind. I recommend checking out systems like Wyrcan to see a little deeper how we can eliminate some of the historical OS layers & build a more modular, more secure, more atomic, more application centric OS[1]. A lot of it relies on better filesystems like ZFS or Btrfs which have snapshots. I myself twiddled around with writing some Debian-Live boot tools that used btrfs snapshots, copied onto ram-drives[2], that would potentially work well with package managers (boot either your starting image, or your "new" snapshot image). These ideas predate (the deeply reviled by some haters) Lennart's post, "Revisiting How We Put Together Linux Systems"[3]. But Lennart here, in mid 2014, understood what containers were doing, understood how atomic system upgrades were trending, understood what was happening. This isn't a Lennart idea, but Lennart as usual semi got the gist of what made sense, what would help, where we were going. He captured the good idea of what was occuring already into a post. And calling out /usr as "the system image" was a clear & obvious win for that day, back in 2014, and it's still a clear & obvious win today to consolidate the OS into one directory today. May it be so. This is the way. So say we all. It is known. The "usr" meaning user is seemingly in fact true. But it's also, imho, wrong? The backronym is more truthful, better describes what role /usr plays & has played for multiple decades now. "user" doesn't really mean anything reasonable, clear, or cogent. [1] https://gitlab.com/wyrcan/wyrcan https://gitlab.com/wyrcan/wyrcan [2] https://github.com/rektide/debian-live-boot https://github.com/rektide/debian-live-boot [3] https://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html https://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-lin...
- icedchai 4y ago
  You could achieve the same thing with sym links, which is basically what Apple does with newer versions of macOS. The main OS partition (/) is read only, essentially immutable (unless you disable SIP.) There is a writeable volume mounted on /private (in a funky way, using "firm links".) /etc, /var, /home, and a couple others are symlinks to /private/etc, /private/var, /private/home ... They do some funky stuff with /usr/local and a few other directories, too. This person seems to explain it: http://www.swiftforensics.com/2019/10/macos-1015-volumes-firmlink-magic.html http://www.swiftforensics.com/2019/10/macos-1015-volumes-fir...
p_l 4y ago
It's the standard upgrade method on most deployed desktop/laptop linux, a certain Gentoo derivative known as ChromeOS, and from there it's also common update mechanism of Google COS (default for GKE nowadays) and Flatcar (not sure if Fedora mangling of CoreOS uses it anymore as they reportedly use rpm-ostree)
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- kazinator 4y ago
  > standard upgrade method on most deployed desktop/laptop linux Deployed desktop Linux has /bin and /lib, so it's somehow working.
  - p_l 4y ago
    ChromeOS has them as symlinks to /usr/bin and /usr/lib, so does Fedora and all Fedora-derived distros, so does Arch and its derivatives.
obscurette 4y ago
CoreOS Container Linux (haven't checked out Fedora CoreOS) and its' fork Flatcar Linux do that. I couldn't find any good doc about this, but the idea is that: - RO /usr contains all the system, the rest is populated with tmpfilesd - There is two /usr partitions, the active one is selected with GPT priority attribute https://github.com/endocode/coreos-docs/blob/master/os/sdk-disk-partitions.md https://github.com/endocode/coreos-docs/blob/master/os/sdk-d...
kazinator 4y ago
It's another made-up problem whose purpose is to enable the mockery of a valid idea in Myth #11.

db48x 4y ago

Yea, it’s pretty funny. It used to hold the home directories, but the disk holding the OS ran out of space, so they started putting new utilities in /usr/bin. The distribution tapes they sent out to everyone who ordered a copy were made directly from the live system, so we all inherited the same quirk. We’ve moved the home directories elsewhere, and now the whole OS is climbing into /usr in order to be atomically mountable. I keep thinking of that Gilbert and Sullivan song with the line “it gradually got so!”.

rtontic 4y ago
Even funnier, now a lot of software pollutes your home directory with shared files and dotfiles, so that space is invaded too. I resort to creating a separate files directory, either in /files, my home directory or in /mnt/files, and store all my local files there.
- db48x 4y ago
  I’m not as bothered about that. I do have a git repository called dotfiles with some of the more important ones. I then use GNU Stow to install them from there to their customary locations. That helps me keep them in sync across computers.

rektide 4y ago

Generally the idea is more for atomic system upgrades, and less for package managers. Why have package managers when you can just mmdebstrap a new image & try start it, but keep all your /etc and /home stuff? That's the dream. Package managers become semi-obsolete. I think there are a variety of ideas for how package managers might come into compliance & make use of this though! A lot of possibility. But the notion of OSes that can swap images, that transcend the idea of one special bucket of bits that we slowly move forward, is kind of new. Containers are 100% there, are making it clear. But the conventional OS is still lagging, learning, behind. I recommend checking out systems like Wyrcan to see a little deeper how we can eliminate some of the historical OS layers & build a more modular, more secure, more atomic, more application centric OS[1]. A lot of it relies on better filesystems like ZFS or Btrfs which have snapshots. I myself twiddled around with writing some Debian-Live boot tools that used btrfs snapshots, copied onto ram-drives[2], that would potentially work well with package managers (boot either your starting image, or your "new" snapshot image). These ideas predate (the deeply reviled by some haters) Lennart's post, "Revisiting How We Put Together Linux Systems"[3]. But Lennart here, in mid 2014, understood what containers were doing, understood how atomic system upgrades were trending, understood what was happening. This isn't a Lennart idea, but Lennart as usual semi got the gist of what made sense, what would help, where we were going. He captured the good idea of what was occuring already into a post. And calling out /usr as "the system image" was a clear & obvious win for that day, back in 2014, and it's still a clear & obvious win today to consolidate the OS into one directory today. May it be so. This is the way. So say we all. It is known. The "usr" meaning user is seemingly in fact true. But it's also, imho, wrong? The backronym is more truthful, better describes what role /usr plays & has played for multiple decades now. "user" doesn't really mean anything reasonable, clear, or cogent. [1] https://gitlab.com/wyrcan/wyrcan https://gitlab.com/wyrcan/wyrcan [2] https://github.com/rektide/debian-live-boot https://github.com/rektide/debian-live-boot [3] https://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html https://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-lin...

icedchai 4y ago
You could achieve the same thing with sym links, which is basically what Apple does with newer versions of macOS. The main OS partition (/) is read only, essentially immutable (unless you disable SIP.) There is a writeable volume mounted on /private (in a funky way, using "firm links".) /etc, /var, /home, and a couple others are symlinks to /private/etc, /private/var, /private/home ... They do some funky stuff with /usr/local and a few other directories, too. This person seems to explain it: http://www.swiftforensics.com/2019/10/macos-1015-volumes-firmlink-magic.html http://www.swiftforensics.com/2019/10/macos-1015-volumes-fir...

p_l 4y ago

It's the standard upgrade method on most deployed desktop/laptop linux, a certain Gentoo derivative known as ChromeOS, and from there it's also common update mechanism of Google COS (default for GKE nowadays) and Flatcar (not sure if Fedora mangling of CoreOS uses it anymore as they reportedly use rpm-ostree)

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kazinator 4y ago
> standard upgrade method on most deployed desktop/laptop linux Deployed desktop Linux has /bin and /lib, so it's somehow working.
- p_l 4y ago
  ChromeOS has them as symlinks to /usr/bin and /usr/lib, so does Fedora and all Fedora-derived distros, so does Arch and its derivatives.

obscurette 4y ago

CoreOS Container Linux (haven't checked out Fedora CoreOS) and its' fork Flatcar Linux do that. I couldn't find any good doc about this, but the idea is that: - RO /usr contains all the system, the rest is populated with tmpfilesd - There is two /usr partitions, the active one is selected with GPT priority attribute https://github.com/endocode/coreos-docs/blob/master/os/sdk-disk-partitions.md https://github.com/endocode/coreos-docs/blob/master/os/sdk-d...

kazinator 4y ago

It's another made-up problem whose purpose is to enable the mockery of a valid idea in Myth #11.