4 ms·

Lots of people are driven by pain and discomfort, not guilted, into euthanasia.

by ivalm 4y ago

Cupertino95014 4y ago
And you know this how?
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  I spent 3.5 years in constant, excruciating pain. My condition is incurable. I'm for the right to die. I've spoken of this periodically on HN. I don't imagine I'm the only one. It can't be that hard to learn that there are people that feel this way -- that they just want their torment to end and death is the only apparent path out.
  - Cupertino95014 4y ago
    Anecdotes are not data. I'm sure I can find some people who'd say something like "I just wanted to die, but then miraculously things got better." When the police are trying to determine if a spouse was actually being beaten by the other, they get them alone. That's not perfect, but at least it's better than just saying "Are you OK? Good then, carry on." Until you give all the "voluntary" people: 1. the chance to say, without coercion, that that's what they want, with the aid of a counselor who acts as their advocate (since many of them are not articulate enough to speak for themselves). 2. an actual alternative that isn't artificially made to seem as horrible as possible. you have not established that it's "voluntary." In your case, Doreen, it sounds like you would pass #1, and #2 might be "a lot of drugs" with no other alternatives, so that does sound like it's really "voluntary."
    - DoreenMichele 4y ago
      I don't disagree with you that it's potentially abusable. I'm only saying that lots of people genuinely want their suffering to end and the world is failing to give them a better answer than death. You weren't asking "How do we sort out who genuinely wants out of their suffering and who is conveniently being offed by overburdened family?" That's not the question I was replying to.
      - Cupertino95014 4y ago
        You're right; I was elaborating on what "voluntary" would mean, and attempting to answer the question in your second paragraph. A thread should progress towards some sort of resolution, ideally. As for "the world is failing to give them a better answer than death" -- what would that be? Other than drugs or curing the disease, of course. My mother died in a hospice room at the assisted care facility. Her hospice nurse said "there's no reason why anyone has to suffer anymore." I was also around when her mother died, and that was much, much worse.
        DoreenMichele 4y ago
        Pain killers weren't doing fuck all for me. I once told a friend "I would sell my soul to the devil for 24 hours without pain." I've seen articles that suggest that many coma patients are aware and it's a living nightmare to be aware and trapped in a helpless body. Anyone saying that no one has to suffer anymore is full of shit. Yeah, a means to actually be healthy is the only real answer and if the world can't give you that and your condition is torture and you want out, you should have the right to end your suffering.
        Cupertino95014 4y ago
        Agreed. As for the third paragraph: I don't know, this lady deals with dying patients for a living. I'd tend to go with that.
    - awillen 4y ago
      In your initial post, you said: "As for "voluntary" euthanasia: don't even start. There is no such thing." That means that you're wrong to say anecdotes aren't data. An anecdote is a single data point, but a single data point is all you need to disprove an absolute (like the one you just gave). One person's anecdote that they would voluntarily choose euthanasia is sufficient data to prove you wrong.
      - Cupertino95014 4y ago
        .. and if we have one person who thought they wanted to die, but didn't, and now they're glad: you lose. Checkmate.
        DoreenMichele 4y ago
        .. and if we have one person who thought they wanted to die, but didn't, and now they're glad: you lose. Checkmate. Please kindly find a quote from me saying I'm glad I didn't die. I don't think I have ever said that. Anywhere. In two fucking decades. And I sure as hell haven't said it in this conversation.
        awillen 4y ago
        No. I didn't say anywhere that it's impossible that someone could want to die and change their mind. You're really missing a basic understanding of logic here.
        ivalm 4y ago
        Why would they lose? The discussion is an absolute about preference to die, not about change of that preference by someone who didn’t die. Also, not hard to imagine that there would be some people whose preference didn’t change. They just suffered longer and then died anyways. This is common with terminal cancers.
- tomjakubowski 4y ago
  Ask yourself the same thing: how can you possibly know that nobody voluntarily chooses euthanasia?
  - Cupertino95014 4y ago
    No, you ask yourself. It was claimed "Lots of people are driven by pain and discomfort, not guilted, into euthanasia." It's incumbent on the person making an assertion to support it.
    - ivalm 4y ago
      You claimed without proof: > As for "voluntary" euthanasia: don't even start. There is no such thing. Your old father doesn't want to be a burden, but he's helpless, and it's all too easy to "convince" him to take the pill. This claim can be refuted by providing even one case of voluntary euthanasia, which at this point you can see in the replies.
      - Cupertino95014 4y ago
        .. and you claimed without proof also. You didn't say there was "one person," you said there were "lots of people." So prove it.
        ivalm 4y ago
        Lots of people is just more than one. It’s not a quantified concept. Anyways, I’m happy to say “some” instead of “lots of”, my main point is that these people exist, that’s why I replied to your comment.
- ivalm 4y ago
  I have spoken to many older folks, some of them quite wealthy who expressed their desire to choose their own death. One of them, unfortunately, got a metastasized late stage cancer (discovered late), and in fact ended her life with dr assisted euthanasia. She did not have children, and did so on her own volition. She was definitely rich enough to hire caretakers/pay necessary medical expenses. Honestly, even for myself, if my situation is extremely terminal, I would rather die in comfort and control than a torture slightly muffled by opioid stupor.

Lots of people are driven by pain and discomfort, not guilted, into euthanasia.

by ivalm 4y ago

Lots of people are driven by pain and discomfort, not guilted, into euthanasia.

Cupertino95014 4y ago

And you know this how?

DoreenMichele 4y ago
I spent 3.5 years in constant, excruciating pain. My condition is incurable. I'm for the right to die. I've spoken of this periodically on HN. I don't imagine I'm the only one. It can't be that hard to learn that there are people that feel this way -- that they just want their torment to end and death is the only apparent path out.
- Cupertino95014 4y ago
  Anecdotes are not data. I'm sure I can find some people who'd say something like "I just wanted to die, but then miraculously things got better." When the police are trying to determine if a spouse was actually being beaten by the other, they get them alone. That's not perfect, but at least it's better than just saying "Are you OK? Good then, carry on." Until you give all the "voluntary" people: 1. the chance to say, without coercion, that that's what they want, with the aid of a counselor who acts as their advocate (since many of them are not articulate enough to speak for themselves). 2. an actual alternative that isn't artificially made to seem as horrible as possible. you have not established that it's "voluntary." In your case, Doreen, it sounds like you would pass #1, and #2 might be "a lot of drugs" with no other alternatives, so that does sound like it's really "voluntary."
  - DoreenMichele 4y ago
    I don't disagree with you that it's potentially abusable. I'm only saying that lots of people genuinely want their suffering to end and the world is failing to give them a better answer than death. You weren't asking "How do we sort out who genuinely wants out of their suffering and who is conveniently being offed by overburdened family?" That's not the question I was replying to.
    - Cupertino95014 4y ago
      You're right; I was elaborating on what "voluntary" would mean, and attempting to answer the question in your second paragraph. A thread should progress towards some sort of resolution, ideally. As for "the world is failing to give them a better answer than death" -- what would that be? Other than drugs or curing the disease, of course. My mother died in a hospice room at the assisted care facility. Her hospice nurse said "there's no reason why anyone has to suffer anymore." I was also around when her mother died, and that was much, much worse.
      - DoreenMichele 4y ago
        Pain killers weren't doing fuck all for me. I once told a friend "I would sell my soul to the devil for 24 hours without pain." I've seen articles that suggest that many coma patients are aware and it's a living nightmare to be aware and trapped in a helpless body. Anyone saying that no one has to suffer anymore is full of shit. Yeah, a means to actually be healthy is the only real answer and if the world can't give you that and your condition is torture and you want out, you should have the right to end your suffering.
        Cupertino95014 4y ago
        Agreed. As for the third paragraph: I don't know, this lady deals with dying patients for a living. I'd tend to go with that.
  - awillen 4y ago
    In your initial post, you said: "As for "voluntary" euthanasia: don't even start. There is no such thing." That means that you're wrong to say anecdotes aren't data. An anecdote is a single data point, but a single data point is all you need to disprove an absolute (like the one you just gave). One person's anecdote that they would voluntarily choose euthanasia is sufficient data to prove you wrong.
    - Cupertino95014 4y ago
      .. and if we have one person who thought they wanted to die, but didn't, and now they're glad: you lose. Checkmate.
      - DoreenMichele 4y ago
        .. and if we have one person who thought they wanted to die, but didn't, and now they're glad: you lose. Checkmate. Please kindly find a quote from me saying I'm glad I didn't die. I don't think I have ever said that. Anywhere. In two fucking decades. And I sure as hell haven't said it in this conversation.
      - awillen 4y ago
        No. I didn't say anywhere that it's impossible that someone could want to die and change their mind. You're really missing a basic understanding of logic here.
      - ivalm 4y ago
        Why would they lose? The discussion is an absolute about preference to die, not about change of that preference by someone who didn’t die. Also, not hard to imagine that there would be some people whose preference didn’t change. They just suffered longer and then died anyways. This is common with terminal cancers.
tomjakubowski 4y ago
Ask yourself the same thing: how can you possibly know that nobody voluntarily chooses euthanasia?
- Cupertino95014 4y ago
  No, you ask yourself. It was claimed "Lots of people are driven by pain and discomfort, not guilted, into euthanasia." It's incumbent on the person making an assertion to support it.
  - ivalm 4y ago
    You claimed without proof: > As for "voluntary" euthanasia: don't even start. There is no such thing. Your old father doesn't want to be a burden, but he's helpless, and it's all too easy to "convince" him to take the pill. This claim can be refuted by providing even one case of voluntary euthanasia, which at this point you can see in the replies.
    - Cupertino95014 4y ago
      .. and you claimed without proof also. You didn't say there was "one person," you said there were "lots of people." So prove it.
      - ivalm 4y ago
        Lots of people is just more than one. It’s not a quantified concept. Anyways, I’m happy to say “some” instead of “lots of”, my main point is that these people exist, that’s why I replied to your comment.
ivalm 4y ago
I have spoken to many older folks, some of them quite wealthy who expressed their desire to choose their own death. One of them, unfortunately, got a metastasized late stage cancer (discovered late), and in fact ended her life with dr assisted euthanasia. She did not have children, and did so on her own volition. She was definitely rich enough to hire caretakers/pay necessary medical expenses. Honestly, even for myself, if my situation is extremely terminal, I would rather die in comfort and control than a torture slightly muffled by opioid stupor.