6 ms·

I'm eastern european, before visiting Germany I was under the impression a retirement home was for old people that don't have any family left at all. I was blow

I'm eastern european, before visiting Germany I was under the impression a retirement home was for old people that don't have any family left at all. I was blown away to find out kids will put their parents in retirements instead of living and taking care of them until they pass away. How is this acceptable for a sane society?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lotsofpulp 4y ago
I do not think my kids owe me anything. I want them to prioritize their lives, their futures, and their kids over me. I base this on watching my parents (especially my mother) spend their entire youth taking care of my paternal grandparents, who lived far too long (101 and 97). To boot, my grandfather had my dad in his 50s, and my grandmother was 15 years younger than him, so my mother basically spent ages 20 to 50 as a maid/nurse/cook. They spoke no English (living in the US) and they did not drive, and they detracted from my parents’ ability to do what they wanted to do for their kids.
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> How is this acceptable for a sane society? A good starting point when trying to understand other cultures is to drop pretences of universal sanity or even morality. American culture values independence. Many senior citizens in old folks’ homes pay for their own stays. They’re choosing to be there. I’d start there to understand why this happens, and how it isn’t a story of heartless holidaying kids dumping their parents on someone else.
- ok_dad 4y ago
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > no one gives a fuck about anyone other than themselves and actively fucks over other people to get ahead the tiniest amount American culture also prizes traditional notions of community. (In a sense, this is its present political crisis.) The flip side of communal cultures is the stifling of individual choice and identity, the latter particularly problematic for anyone who diverges from the community’s ideal. Note that independence and individuality are similar concepts. But they’re distinct. Individualism is the American cultural trait that inspires competitiveness and sociopathy. Independence seeks to open one’s options but also not be a burden to others. It can be framed selfishly or altruistically depending on the circumstances, which is why I don’t think bringing judgement into such comparisons at the start is productive.
    - ok_dad 4y ago
      Good point, I guess I personally prefer communal cultures and my bias framed my view of American culture as a result. Still, you’re taking close to the No true Scotsman fallacy; if American independent culture relies on local community, and that’s broken right now due to tons of fighting and negative politics, that means our culture is basically broken. I would argue American culture doesn’t work without the situation where locals take care of locals.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        With respect to taking care of elders, or more specifically, people who need assistance due to aging, almost all cultures are “broken” simply due to demographic issues. Longer life expectancies, more medical treatments to keep people around, but not fully functional, and declining birthrates inevitably lead to a situation where sacrifices have to be made.
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > if American independent culture relies on local community, and that’s broken right now due to tons of fighting and negative politics, that means our culture is basically broken I said Americans prize a sense of community, not that we rely on it. Not universally, at least. And yes, I’d say this is a fault line across which American culture is inconsistent, potentially broken. Cartoonishly simplified, one side says you shouldn’t have to rely on/burden your community, and so should have public options individually accessible. The other that local communities (families, towns, et cetera should step up, albeit at the cost of demanding some amount of shared pain and conformity. It’s a tough one to resolve if we insist everyone run the same playbook. I've always liked Hofstede's thoughts on the individual-collectivist spectrum [1]. [1] https://hi.hofstede-insights.com/national-culture https://hi.hofstede-insights.com/national-culture
  - pkaye 4y ago
    The boomer generation got good pensions, affordable housing and growing investments so they could afford to live by themselves. Another thing is in many countries people are having less kids so that puts more of a burden on the few kids to support their elders. Future generations wont be so lucky because elderly will have less retirement income and no kids to fall back on.
betaby 4y ago
Well, don't know about Germany but in Canada old-age people voluntarily move to retirements home. And yes, they took home equity / sold their home and eventually there won't be anything to inherit from them. Don't know whenever it better or not of the eastern European approach.
- evv555 4y ago
  How common is this in Canada? This doesn't sound like a representative anecdote. This sounds like a vacuously true statement as they say in statistics.
  - betaby 4y ago
    I would say very common, see https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/as-sa/98-312-x/98-312-x2011003_4-eng.cfm https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/as-sa/98... from ten years ago. ' Among seniors in their nineties, over half (56.5%) lived in private households in 2011, including 28.7% who lived alone, 12.2% who were part of couples and 15.7% who lived with others, such as adult children. The remaining 43.5% lived in collectives such as nursing homes or residences for senior citizens. '
    - evv555 4y ago
      This isn't a useful stat for answering the question
LegitShady 4y ago
My mom took care of her father for ~2-3 years from when he started getting sick (and tbh a little dementia) to when he passed. It was really tough on her, even with some help. She told me she plans to not put that burden on anyone else, and has prepared for that situation exactly. People change as they go through suffering and some of the nicest people become quite difficult to deal with after years of physical problems, pain, etc. People also have lives and having someone around to deal with medical issues, or even wipe them in the bathroom, or make them a meal etc becomes challenging especially if the person's kids don't have other people around to help. That doesn't make putting someone in a home better, but its not simple like you seem to think it is.
RappingBoomer 4y ago
we are far from sane
kjreact 4y ago
I would like to offer a counter view; I originally was planning on taking care of both my parents and my in-laws as they aged, but to my surprise neither wanted that. Both sides have experienced taking care of their previous generation and saw the tensions it caused with their significant others. Now neither want to be a burden to our generation so they prefer to live independently. Unlike their parents who were poor immigrants to NA with little to no retirement savings, they held decent jobs for most of their adult lives and have the financial means to live comfortably for the remainder of their lives. So sometimes it isn’t the kids who prefer to send their parents to retirement homes. Some seniors take pride in taking care of themselves.
- orzig 4y ago
  Agreed. My grandmother was lovingly cared for by my grandfather until he died (he was physically able until the end), but in many ways her health was better in the nursing home for the next several years. For her level of needs, 24/7 professionals with a regular rotation of visiting family was the right arrangement. That said, the savings which had seemed perfectly sufficient when he'd retired from a big solid American company (pension, etc) were just obliterated by the black swan of American medical costs, and we had to sell the home which had been in our family for generations.
bojan 4y ago
Retirement homes in Western Europe are probably not the sort of thing you imagine. They are well regulated, and residents have a good mix of privacy, care and social interaction. I prefer vastly to end up in one of those one day then living in with my daughter and her future family. On workdays I'd still be alone and helpless for a good part of the day, waiting like a puppy for them to come home and tend to my physical and social needs. How miserable is that?
homieg33 4y ago
(USA here) My mother always would tell us kids to put her in a retirement home as soon as she became a burden to the family. Her favorite children's book was also The Giving Tree so there’s that.
magic_hamster 4y ago
Also non-American, but I do spend a lot of time in the US and with American people. It seems very common for children to leave home after highschool, move really far away and basically go overnight from living with their parents to seeing them once or twice a year. As time moves on and they get busier, the children might not even see their folks every year. I think that pretty much by default, your life cycle in the US is to leave your house, start your own family, get a bigger place to raise your family, pay it off for a couple of decades, and once your own kids move out, go to Florida and hope your children will see you more than a couple of times before you die. Somber jokes aside, if you plan ahead you can live quite well in the US, even though there's no guarantee you will be in close contact with your family for more than 18 years. To me that's not a great tradeoff (also, medcial treatment costs a fortune) which is why I always go back to my family in my home country. Nothing is better than being with family.
- dgfitz 4y ago
  My cynic take is: you’ve never met my family. And When you’re a burden to your own I wonder if they feel like “nothing is better than being with family”
  - magic_hamster 4y ago
    You're absolutely right. You need some luck being born into a family that shows support, affection and love, and does so in a positive way. There is no shortage of people who can't wait to get away from their family. With that said, even in the most tight knit families, some people don't see each other often because they're busy, live far away, can't afford the trip or don't have enough days off.
- ip26 4y ago
  People leave home because opportunity lies elsewhere. The US has changed pretty fast; the rust belt went from class ladder to sinking ship in a single generation, for example. Smallholder farms have been squeezed out in the last half century by commercial operations pushing down prices, sending many kids who were born on a farm to the city. There are communities all over which are lovely for empty nesters but dead ends for young adults.
VoodooJuJu 4y ago
I don't think it's acceptable, but it's certainly profitable. Taking care of your family doesn't show up in GDP - gotta keep that GDP up though.
triceratops 4y ago
> How is this acceptable for a sane society? I'd rather have my incontinence diapers changed by a care worker than my children.
null_shift 4y ago
I feel that children have no obligation to take care of their elderly parents. They don’t owe them anything. The alternative seems more insane to me.
- ktzar 4y ago
  A society that creates people who feel entitled to say they don't owe anything to those who made immense sacrifices for them (even though nobody chooses their relatives), is quite sad. It's a society so individualistic that deprives one of the main pleasures of human life: making a difference in the lives of those you love.
  - patmcc 4y ago
    Parents choose to have children; in my mind the responsibility flows in that direction, from parent to child. A child has no choice in the matter, why should they be saddled with responsibility? I'll happily care for my mother as she ages - she's been a wonderful parent all my life. But I have friend whose parents basically just kept them alive to adulthood, kicked them out, and are now expecting years of "payback". No thanks.
ip26 4y ago
What do you do when the child left town to seek their fortune, found it a thousand miles away, and the parent doesn’t want to move? Does the child terminate their career to move back? Does the parent move to an unfamiliar place against their will? It’s very difficult to have mobility (chose your own life, follow opportunity) and very tight-knit family at the same time.
- mokash 4y ago
  i'd like the answer to this too. let me know if you ever figure it out

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

lotsofpulp 4y ago

I do not think my kids owe me anything. I want them to prioritize their lives, their futures, and their kids over me. I base this on watching my parents (especially my mother) spend their entire youth taking care of my paternal grandparents, who lived far too long (101 and 97). To boot, my grandfather had my dad in his 50s, and my grandmother was 15 years younger than him, so my mother basically spent ages 20 to 50 as a maid/nurse/cook. They spoke no English (living in the US) and they did not drive, and they detracted from my parents’ ability to do what they wanted to do for their kids.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> How is this acceptable for a sane society? A good starting point when trying to understand other cultures is to drop pretences of universal sanity or even morality. American culture values independence. Many senior citizens in old folks’ homes pay for their own stays. They’re choosing to be there. I’d start there to understand why this happens, and how it isn’t a story of heartless holidaying kids dumping their parents on someone else.

ok_dad 4y ago
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > no one gives a fuck about anyone other than themselves and actively fucks over other people to get ahead the tiniest amount American culture also prizes traditional notions of community. (In a sense, this is its present political crisis.) The flip side of communal cultures is the stifling of individual choice and identity, the latter particularly problematic for anyone who diverges from the community’s ideal. Note that independence and individuality are similar concepts. But they’re distinct. Individualism is the American cultural trait that inspires competitiveness and sociopathy. Independence seeks to open one’s options but also not be a burden to others. It can be framed selfishly or altruistically depending on the circumstances, which is why I don’t think bringing judgement into such comparisons at the start is productive.
  - ok_dad 4y ago
    Good point, I guess I personally prefer communal cultures and my bias framed my view of American culture as a result. Still, you’re taking close to the No true Scotsman fallacy; if American independent culture relies on local community, and that’s broken right now due to tons of fighting and negative politics, that means our culture is basically broken. I would argue American culture doesn’t work without the situation where locals take care of locals.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      With respect to taking care of elders, or more specifically, people who need assistance due to aging, almost all cultures are “broken” simply due to demographic issues. Longer life expectancies, more medical treatments to keep people around, but not fully functional, and declining birthrates inevitably lead to a situation where sacrifices have to be made.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > if American independent culture relies on local community, and that’s broken right now due to tons of fighting and negative politics, that means our culture is basically broken I said Americans prize a sense of community, not that we rely on it. Not universally, at least. And yes, I’d say this is a fault line across which American culture is inconsistent, potentially broken. Cartoonishly simplified, one side says you shouldn’t have to rely on/burden your community, and so should have public options individually accessible. The other that local communities (families, towns, et cetera should step up, albeit at the cost of demanding some amount of shared pain and conformity. It’s a tough one to resolve if we insist everyone run the same playbook. I've always liked Hofstede's thoughts on the individual-collectivist spectrum [1]. [1] https://hi.hofstede-insights.com/national-culture https://hi.hofstede-insights.com/national-culture
- pkaye 4y ago
  The boomer generation got good pensions, affordable housing and growing investments so they could afford to live by themselves. Another thing is in many countries people are having less kids so that puts more of a burden on the few kids to support their elders. Future generations wont be so lucky because elderly will have less retirement income and no kids to fall back on.

betaby 4y ago

Well, don't know about Germany but in Canada old-age people voluntarily move to retirements home. And yes, they took home equity / sold their home and eventually there won't be anything to inherit from them. Don't know whenever it better or not of the eastern European approach.

evv555 4y ago
How common is this in Canada? This doesn't sound like a representative anecdote. This sounds like a vacuously true statement as they say in statistics.
- betaby 4y ago
  I would say very common, see https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/as-sa/98-312-x/98-312-x2011003_4-eng.cfm https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/as-sa/98... from ten years ago. ' Among seniors in their nineties, over half (56.5%) lived in private households in 2011, including 28.7% who lived alone, 12.2% who were part of couples and 15.7% who lived with others, such as adult children. The remaining 43.5% lived in collectives such as nursing homes or residences for senior citizens. '
  - evv555 4y ago
    This isn't a useful stat for answering the question

LegitShady 4y ago

My mom took care of her father for ~2-3 years from when he started getting sick (and tbh a little dementia) to when he passed. It was really tough on her, even with some help. She told me she plans to not put that burden on anyone else, and has prepared for that situation exactly. People change as they go through suffering and some of the nicest people become quite difficult to deal with after years of physical problems, pain, etc. People also have lives and having someone around to deal with medical issues, or even wipe them in the bathroom, or make them a meal etc becomes challenging especially if the person's kids don't have other people around to help. That doesn't make putting someone in a home better, but its not simple like you seem to think it is.

RappingBoomer 4y ago

we are far from sane

kjreact 4y ago

I would like to offer a counter view; I originally was planning on taking care of both my parents and my in-laws as they aged, but to my surprise neither wanted that. Both sides have experienced taking care of their previous generation and saw the tensions it caused with their significant others. Now neither want to be a burden to our generation so they prefer to live independently. Unlike their parents who were poor immigrants to NA with little to no retirement savings, they held decent jobs for most of their adult lives and have the financial means to live comfortably for the remainder of their lives. So sometimes it isn’t the kids who prefer to send their parents to retirement homes. Some seniors take pride in taking care of themselves.

orzig 4y ago
Agreed. My grandmother was lovingly cared for by my grandfather until he died (he was physically able until the end), but in many ways her health was better in the nursing home for the next several years. For her level of needs, 24/7 professionals with a regular rotation of visiting family was the right arrangement. That said, the savings which had seemed perfectly sufficient when he'd retired from a big solid American company (pension, etc) were just obliterated by the black swan of American medical costs, and we had to sell the home which had been in our family for generations.

bojan 4y ago

Retirement homes in Western Europe are probably not the sort of thing you imagine. They are well regulated, and residents have a good mix of privacy, care and social interaction. I prefer vastly to end up in one of those one day then living in with my daughter and her future family. On workdays I'd still be alone and helpless for a good part of the day, waiting like a puppy for them to come home and tend to my physical and social needs. How miserable is that?

homieg33 4y ago

(USA here) My mother always would tell us kids to put her in a retirement home as soon as she became a burden to the family. Her favorite children's book was also The Giving Tree so there’s that.

magic_hamster 4y ago

Also non-American, but I do spend a lot of time in the US and with American people. It seems very common for children to leave home after highschool, move really far away and basically go overnight from living with their parents to seeing them once or twice a year. As time moves on and they get busier, the children might not even see their folks every year. I think that pretty much by default, your life cycle in the US is to leave your house, start your own family, get a bigger place to raise your family, pay it off for a couple of decades, and once your own kids move out, go to Florida and hope your children will see you more than a couple of times before you die. Somber jokes aside, if you plan ahead you can live quite well in the US, even though there's no guarantee you will be in close contact with your family for more than 18 years. To me that's not a great tradeoff (also, medcial treatment costs a fortune) which is why I always go back to my family in my home country. Nothing is better than being with family.

dgfitz 4y ago
My cynic take is: you’ve never met my family. And When you’re a burden to your own I wonder if they feel like “nothing is better than being with family”
- magic_hamster 4y ago
  You're absolutely right. You need some luck being born into a family that shows support, affection and love, and does so in a positive way. There is no shortage of people who can't wait to get away from their family. With that said, even in the most tight knit families, some people don't see each other often because they're busy, live far away, can't afford the trip or don't have enough days off.
ip26 4y ago
People leave home because opportunity lies elsewhere. The US has changed pretty fast; the rust belt went from class ladder to sinking ship in a single generation, for example. Smallholder farms have been squeezed out in the last half century by commercial operations pushing down prices, sending many kids who were born on a farm to the city. There are communities all over which are lovely for empty nesters but dead ends for young adults.

VoodooJuJu 4y ago

I don't think it's acceptable, but it's certainly profitable. Taking care of your family doesn't show up in GDP - gotta keep that GDP up though.

triceratops 4y ago

> How is this acceptable for a sane society? I'd rather have my incontinence diapers changed by a care worker than my children.

null_shift 4y ago

I feel that children have no obligation to take care of their elderly parents. They don’t owe them anything. The alternative seems more insane to me.

ktzar 4y ago
A society that creates people who feel entitled to say they don't owe anything to those who made immense sacrifices for them (even though nobody chooses their relatives), is quite sad. It's a society so individualistic that deprives one of the main pleasures of human life: making a difference in the lives of those you love.
- patmcc 4y ago
  Parents choose to have children; in my mind the responsibility flows in that direction, from parent to child. A child has no choice in the matter, why should they be saddled with responsibility? I'll happily care for my mother as she ages - she's been a wonderful parent all my life. But I have friend whose parents basically just kept them alive to adulthood, kicked them out, and are now expecting years of "payback". No thanks.

ip26 4y ago

What do you do when the child left town to seek their fortune, found it a thousand miles away, and the parent doesn’t want to move? Does the child terminate their career to move back? Does the parent move to an unfamiliar place against their will? It’s very difficult to have mobility (chose your own life, follow opportunity) and very tight-knit family at the same time.

mokash 4y ago
i'd like the answer to this too. let me know if you ever figure it out