12 ms·

All of this has a super simple explanation: the shitty products always have org structures that treat software dev as shitty cost centers. It took a long time

All of this has a super simple explanation: the shitty products always have org structures that treat software dev as shitty cost centers. It took a long time to realize that the most compelling devices have good, well maintained software. I don’t mean to say that software devs are geniuses or that these orgs have to hire the best of the best. No, they just need to create an org that prioritizes software dev. Low attrition, increased visibility, the usual. You don’t need fancy new features. Just make sure the intern who wrote your v1 Bluetooth driver feels compelled enough to stay on to become a staff engineer running a team that still assures bugs get fixed. Simple.

snowwolf 4y ago
> It took a long time to realize that the most compelling devices have good, well maintained software. I continue to hold the view that Tesla's success is because they are really a software company, not a car company.
s3r3nity 4y ago
I think you're 85-90% right - but I wouldn't undersell the impact of Apple's proprietary W1 / H1 / H2 chips in their headphones either.
- epolanski 4y ago
  Nobody cares about those, not to the point of paying such premiums.
  - tomphoolery 4y ago
    I mean, if there was another "commodity" processor one could just insert into their earbuds and write some awesome software, why hasn't anyone done that yet? If you could offer the same features as AirPods (and other Apple headphones) at half the cost, you'd make serious money. People might not care too much about those technical features of them, but I know they care about consistently good performance, and the AirPods have so far delivered on that promise. Making something that works just as well, but doesn't require you to be locked in to the Apple ecosystem, would absolutely change the game for the headphone market.
    - DubiousPusher 4y ago
      There are a lot of alternatives noted for their performance. Jabra, Bose, Sony all have earned high marks from reviewers.
      - msbarnett 4y ago
        I’ve got the extremely well regarded Sony WH-1000XM4s. Getting them to switch between devices is an absolute pain in the ass compared to Apple’s fairly seamless handoff. The custom Bluetooth processor seems to be letting Apple solve a lot of pain points that every other Bluetooth headphone just makes you live with.
        dbxkcichhdfufu 4y ago
        "Upgrading" to my Sony's was painful. Beforehand I had some cheap Chinese brand that had the best bluetooth experience of my life. I could switch devices and the one I was using could connect up easy without having to do the whole disconnect from the other device first thing. I suspect on connect it was also issuing a disconnect to the previous sender as well because I never had an issue of a device reconnecting overtop. Multiple devices could be paired at the same time and it just latched on to whichever device tried to connect last. Even apple doesn't do well at this. Apple also has all kinds of weird bugs and sound issues. They are still nice for walking around though so I won't be ditching them anytime soon.
        ricardobayes 4y ago
        Diminishing returns are very real when it comes to BT headphones. The cutoff seems to be around 100 USD/EUR. If you care about sound quality, you are probably using AUX still. An alternative is the Fiio bluetooth/aux adapter that solves the bluetooth part but still has an acceptable sound quality.
        dbxkcichhdfufu 4y ago
        The ones I had were around 60usd and had good enough sound for me. The only problem I had with them was the headband was built for small heads. Broke in the same spot twice. After second I just took the refund and got some Sony's. Sound is pretty nice upgrade though even for someone like me that can't tell. Noise cancelling helps a lot over COVID too.
  - dkonofalski 4y ago
    Nobody cares about the processors themselves but they very much care what they do. One of the biggest things I constantly hear about from others with AirPods is that they connect seamlessly to all their Apple devices and switch automatically as they use them. That's only possible because of these chips.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - dev_tty01 4y ago
    I don't agree, but even if someone thinks they don't care they actually do since the custom silicon is no small part of why the multi-device stuff works so well. Not to mention the noise cancellation, transparency mode, etc. Sure, you buy because of the characteristics, but the characteristics are due to the custom silicon.
- visarga 4y ago
  Oh, so they make their own chips, they make both AirPods and MacBook, the OS, but then why do they fail to connect 20% of the time? I think the product should be capable of making sound 99.9%, not 80% of the time. AirPods might be the king of BT devices but it's a beggar in the house of wired.
  - lostlogin 4y ago
    The house of wires was discontinued. They are lords of a rotten borough.
  - gw99 4y ago
    I have to argue with mine once a day at least but that’s better than every fucking time I want to do anything with every other device I’ve owned. Also, I have no wires now other than a couple of chargers. It is freedom. Never do I have to untangle some EarPods from my keys five times a day.
ballenf 4y ago
I'd prefer a hardware switch over pure software anyway. A toggle on the headphones -- a slide switch for Device A or B. (Auto software switching would be better if it worked 99%+ of the time.)
- theshrike79 4y ago
  My Airpods Max connect to 5 different devices daily. What kind of switch would you suggest they use?
  - tshaddox 4y ago
    A 3-bit DIP switch would do the job.
    - kimburgess 4y ago
      A DIP switch, really? Could you imagine the horrendous usability. Plus all that mechanical movement will surely cause early failure. Much better to just have some solder pads. With the cost and performance of USB/battery irons these days surely most users can keep one handy. This completely solves the challenge of accidental pairing and helps the user ensure each device switch is contemplated and intentional.
    - dev_tty01 4y ago
      I assume this is sarcasm. If not, there is much to learn about making consumers happy.
    - fomine3 4y ago
      Aside from /s, dial like this looks good. https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/keyboards/k480-multi-device-wireless.html https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/keyboards/k480-multi...
  - kalleboo 4y ago
    My first bluetooth earbuds were the Sony Ericsson HBH-DS970 back in 2006. Back then batteries were bigger so it had a pendant that hung down, and on that it had a little display on it that would show the names of the paired devices and you could select one. It worked great.
wvenable 4y ago
Apple's key to success is that they're the best hardware company at doing software.
- lostlogin 4y ago
  Which company is the best software company? I used to have an answer, but don’t anymore.
  - gniv 4y ago
    Probably Google, but it's hard to tell since most of the good stuff is hidden (backend infrastructure).
  - wvenable 4y ago
    I'm going to say Microsoft. For all the faults, they produce good software consistently across a very wide range of domains.
DubiousPusher 4y ago
I'm sorry but it's the case.
MartinCron 4y ago
I like to make the distinction between companies that treat software as a necessary evil vs. a competitive advantage.
adave 4y ago
It's not just the software but how all of it comes together and leadership priorities. https://www.fastcompany.com/90748492/apple-airpods-pro-creation https://www.fastcompany.com/90748492/apple-airpods-pro-creat...
vlovich123 4y ago
It's also possible that their Bluetooth stack for the AirPods is likely sharing a lot of code with their battle-tested iOS stack which puts even Android's to shame (I worked at both places and even Googler's acknowledged Android has some serious problems and Apple kicked there ass here). A sibling noted the H1 chip and whatnot. I don't know how much the specific chip matters for that piece (certainly key for battery life & having both buds appear as a single device). After all, their Bluetooth stack was better than the competition even back when they were using off the shelf chips. Still, it's possible off the shelf chips for acting as the master are somehow simpler than the chips for acting as a slave (or maybe you notice it more).
- lrem 4y ago
  There is a widespread belief in a simple explanation among Googlers: device makers test against iPhone. Whenever Apple strays off spec, they'll choose to be compatible with Apple's implementation rather than the standard. TBF, can't blame them. Apple has pretty much a single stack. Android is about as fragmented as the PC world.
  - Abishek_Muthian 4y ago
    Well I think it doesn't stop with the SW stack, I remember the time when the android devices had the bathtub notch without having any real sensors in them.
  - vlovich123 4y ago
    That wasn't a common belief AFAIK among people I talked with that actually knew what they were talking about. They readily admitted the Android stack sucked balls. There are 3 generations of Bluetooth stack that I recall. The first was Bluez-based but offloaded a lot to the vendor as I recall. That didn't work well. The second one Broadcom open-sourced their BlueDroid stack and donated it to Android in 2012. The third is Google finally taking control of it and I hope they had success with it (my info is a bit dated on that front). Google has had a single Bluetooth stack for quite a while although variable quality vendor implementation. IIRC BlueDroid took over more of the stack than Bluez did so we're talking about 10 years here where Android has had a single monolithic stack. The main explanation I've heard is that Apple has much fewer Bluetooth chips to support but I don't know that explains it because there's generally not that many chips in the market that all phones choose from (granted Apple is now in-house but still, they didn't use to be).
pclmulqdq 4y ago
The unsung part of this is that Bluetooth is a ridiculously complicated protocol. Basically everyone has a broken implementation of it. If someone asked me to choose whether to write either a C++ compiler or a bluetooth stack, I would probably choose the C++ compiler. There are very few people who are both passionate about the problem of wireless devices and who understand all of the stack enough to make a driver that is fast, resilient, and standards-compliant. I hear that Apple sometimes bends the "standards-compliant" part - which is why their airpods only work with their devices. Apple has done a great job giving this team of <100 engineers the space they need to succeed, and it's a huge feat. Most other companies don't even try to write their own BT stack (for good reason) and just use a vendor solution, so their user experience is subpar.
- crummy 4y ago
  > which is why their airpods only work with their devices. I thought I heard Airpods were the best Bluetooth headset on Android, too
  - relaxing 4y ago
    My Airpods work great with my Windows laptop.
- solardev 4y ago
  I use Airpods with my PC, iPad, MacBook, and Android phone. It works well on all of them. Switching sucks though. Basically have to forget and re-pair every time. Still better than the competition though. Had a Sony Xm something or another before, but the Airpods are way easier and more comfortable by a huge margin.

snowwolf 4y ago

> It took a long time to realize that the most compelling devices have good, well maintained software. I continue to hold the view that Tesla's success is because they are really a software company, not a car company.

s3r3nity 4y ago

I think you're 85-90% right - but I wouldn't undersell the impact of Apple's proprietary W1 / H1 / H2 chips in their headphones either.

epolanski 4y ago
Nobody cares about those, not to the point of paying such premiums.
- tomphoolery 4y ago
  I mean, if there was another "commodity" processor one could just insert into their earbuds and write some awesome software, why hasn't anyone done that yet? If you could offer the same features as AirPods (and other Apple headphones) at half the cost, you'd make serious money. People might not care too much about those technical features of them, but I know they care about consistently good performance, and the AirPods have so far delivered on that promise. Making something that works just as well, but doesn't require you to be locked in to the Apple ecosystem, would absolutely change the game for the headphone market.
  - DubiousPusher 4y ago
    There are a lot of alternatives noted for their performance. Jabra, Bose, Sony all have earned high marks from reviewers.
    - msbarnett 4y ago
      I’ve got the extremely well regarded Sony WH-1000XM4s. Getting them to switch between devices is an absolute pain in the ass compared to Apple’s fairly seamless handoff. The custom Bluetooth processor seems to be letting Apple solve a lot of pain points that every other Bluetooth headphone just makes you live with.
      - dbxkcichhdfufu 4y ago
        "Upgrading" to my Sony's was painful. Beforehand I had some cheap Chinese brand that had the best bluetooth experience of my life. I could switch devices and the one I was using could connect up easy without having to do the whole disconnect from the other device first thing. I suspect on connect it was also issuing a disconnect to the previous sender as well because I never had an issue of a device reconnecting overtop. Multiple devices could be paired at the same time and it just latched on to whichever device tried to connect last. Even apple doesn't do well at this. Apple also has all kinds of weird bugs and sound issues. They are still nice for walking around though so I won't be ditching them anytime soon.
        ricardobayes 4y ago
        Diminishing returns are very real when it comes to BT headphones. The cutoff seems to be around 100 USD/EUR. If you care about sound quality, you are probably using AUX still. An alternative is the Fiio bluetooth/aux adapter that solves the bluetooth part but still has an acceptable sound quality.
        dbxkcichhdfufu 4y ago
        The ones I had were around 60usd and had good enough sound for me. The only problem I had with them was the headband was built for small heads. Broke in the same spot twice. After second I just took the refund and got some Sony's. Sound is pretty nice upgrade though even for someone like me that can't tell. Noise cancelling helps a lot over COVID too.
- dkonofalski 4y ago
  Nobody cares about the processors themselves but they very much care what they do. One of the biggest things I constantly hear about from others with AirPods is that they connect seamlessly to all their Apple devices and switch automatically as they use them. That's only possible because of these chips.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- dev_tty01 4y ago
  I don't agree, but even if someone thinks they don't care they actually do since the custom silicon is no small part of why the multi-device stuff works so well. Not to mention the noise cancellation, transparency mode, etc. Sure, you buy because of the characteristics, but the characteristics are due to the custom silicon.
visarga 4y ago
Oh, so they make their own chips, they make both AirPods and MacBook, the OS, but then why do they fail to connect 20% of the time? I think the product should be capable of making sound 99.9%, not 80% of the time. AirPods might be the king of BT devices but it's a beggar in the house of wired.
- lostlogin 4y ago
  The house of wires was discontinued. They are lords of a rotten borough.
- gw99 4y ago
  I have to argue with mine once a day at least but that’s better than every fucking time I want to do anything with every other device I’ve owned. Also, I have no wires now other than a couple of chargers. It is freedom. Never do I have to untangle some EarPods from my keys five times a day.

ballenf 4y ago

I'd prefer a hardware switch over pure software anyway. A toggle on the headphones -- a slide switch for Device A or B. (Auto software switching would be better if it worked 99%+ of the time.)

theshrike79 4y ago
My Airpods Max connect to 5 different devices daily. What kind of switch would you suggest they use?
- tshaddox 4y ago
  A 3-bit DIP switch would do the job.
  - kimburgess 4y ago
    A DIP switch, really? Could you imagine the horrendous usability. Plus all that mechanical movement will surely cause early failure. Much better to just have some solder pads. With the cost and performance of USB/battery irons these days surely most users can keep one handy. This completely solves the challenge of accidental pairing and helps the user ensure each device switch is contemplated and intentional.
  - dev_tty01 4y ago
    I assume this is sarcasm. If not, there is much to learn about making consumers happy.
  - fomine3 4y ago
    Aside from /s, dial like this looks good. https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/keyboards/k480-multi-device-wireless.html https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/keyboards/k480-multi...
- kalleboo 4y ago
  My first bluetooth earbuds were the Sony Ericsson HBH-DS970 back in 2006. Back then batteries were bigger so it had a pendant that hung down, and on that it had a little display on it that would show the names of the paired devices and you could select one. It worked great.

wvenable 4y ago

Apple's key to success is that they're the best hardware company at doing software.

lostlogin 4y ago
Which company is the best software company? I used to have an answer, but don’t anymore.
- gniv 4y ago
  Probably Google, but it's hard to tell since most of the good stuff is hidden (backend infrastructure).
- wvenable 4y ago
  I'm going to say Microsoft. For all the faults, they produce good software consistently across a very wide range of domains.

DubiousPusher 4y ago

I'm sorry but it's the case.

MartinCron 4y ago

I like to make the distinction between companies that treat software as a necessary evil vs. a competitive advantage.

adave 4y ago

It's not just the software but how all of it comes together and leadership priorities. https://www.fastcompany.com/90748492/apple-airpods-pro-creation https://www.fastcompany.com/90748492/apple-airpods-pro-creat...

vlovich123 4y ago

It's also possible that their Bluetooth stack for the AirPods is likely sharing a lot of code with their battle-tested iOS stack which puts even Android's to shame (I worked at both places and even Googler's acknowledged Android has some serious problems and Apple kicked there ass here). A sibling noted the H1 chip and whatnot. I don't know how much the specific chip matters for that piece (certainly key for battery life & having both buds appear as a single device). After all, their Bluetooth stack was better than the competition even back when they were using off the shelf chips. Still, it's possible off the shelf chips for acting as the master are somehow simpler than the chips for acting as a slave (or maybe you notice it more).

lrem 4y ago
There is a widespread belief in a simple explanation among Googlers: device makers test against iPhone. Whenever Apple strays off spec, they'll choose to be compatible with Apple's implementation rather than the standard. TBF, can't blame them. Apple has pretty much a single stack. Android is about as fragmented as the PC world.
- Abishek_Muthian 4y ago
  Well I think it doesn't stop with the SW stack, I remember the time when the android devices had the bathtub notch without having any real sensors in them.
- vlovich123 4y ago
  That wasn't a common belief AFAIK among people I talked with that actually knew what they were talking about. They readily admitted the Android stack sucked balls. There are 3 generations of Bluetooth stack that I recall. The first was Bluez-based but offloaded a lot to the vendor as I recall. That didn't work well. The second one Broadcom open-sourced their BlueDroid stack and donated it to Android in 2012. The third is Google finally taking control of it and I hope they had success with it (my info is a bit dated on that front). Google has had a single Bluetooth stack for quite a while although variable quality vendor implementation. IIRC BlueDroid took over more of the stack than Bluez did so we're talking about 10 years here where Android has had a single monolithic stack. The main explanation I've heard is that Apple has much fewer Bluetooth chips to support but I don't know that explains it because there's generally not that many chips in the market that all phones choose from (granted Apple is now in-house but still, they didn't use to be).

pclmulqdq 4y ago

The unsung part of this is that Bluetooth is a ridiculously complicated protocol. Basically everyone has a broken implementation of it. If someone asked me to choose whether to write either a C++ compiler or a bluetooth stack, I would probably choose the C++ compiler. There are very few people who are both passionate about the problem of wireless devices and who understand all of the stack enough to make a driver that is fast, resilient, and standards-compliant. I hear that Apple sometimes bends the "standards-compliant" part - which is why their airpods only work with their devices. Apple has done a great job giving this team of <100 engineers the space they need to succeed, and it's a huge feat. Most other companies don't even try to write their own BT stack (for good reason) and just use a vendor solution, so their user experience is subpar.

crummy 4y ago
> which is why their airpods only work with their devices. I thought I heard Airpods were the best Bluetooth headset on Android, too
- relaxing 4y ago
  My Airpods work great with my Windows laptop.
solardev 4y ago
I use Airpods with my PC, iPad, MacBook, and Android phone. It works well on all of them. Switching sucks though. Basically have to forget and re-pair every time. Still better than the competition though. Had a Sony Xm something or another before, but the Airpods are way easier and more comfortable by a huge margin.