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"I’m a free marketeer. I believe that voluntary exchange is not just a good method of incentivizing people to provide their labor and talents to society, but a

"I’m a free marketeer. I believe that voluntary exchange is not just a good method of incentivizing people to provide their labor and talents to society, but a robust moral system — goods and services represent tangible benefit to people, market prices represent the true value of goods in society, and wages represent the value that a worker provides to others." I still can't believe there are people this naive. Just reading a newspaper for a year should dispel these myths. A glance through history shows the aftermath of countless free-market train crashes. It's like those economists who thought most people were rational. Crazy stuff.

refurb 4y ago
Saying "train wrecks" to disprove the point is like saying "A glance through history shows the aftermath of countless modern medicine train crashes." I don't know about you, but despite the "train wrecks" in modern medicine, I'm still a believer.
digb 4y ago
I mean they're basically a college student given the YOE and where this was published, sounds like the kid got mugged by reality. But yea, definitely jaw-droppingly naive.
- akira2501 4y ago
  > sounds like the kid got mugged by reality It's curmudgeonly of me, but he got mugged by MIT; which operated very much like the consultancy he went to work for. Promise everything, give the client what they want, ignore the obvious problems in the proposal and let the client take the hit if that's what they want so desperately.. just give them the rubber stamp. So, he took his MIT rubber stamp out into the real world and found out how much "double class load" was NOT like "actual paid work."
lozenge 4y ago
Well, he did mention monopoly effects and negative externalities, but only as if they are minor "extra terms" rather than completely disproving his starting point.
Bloating 4y ago
yeah, this is just in issue in the US due to our "free markets". Never ever happens in countries with real socialism Also, look up at the green grass
klabb3 4y ago
There are indeed those that are shockingly naive, and they are likely the majority. To give the benefit of the doubt though, it is widely accepted, even within say the Austrian school, that free markets need guardrails, and those guardrails are kinda like Fermat's famous "I'd write out the proof but there's no space in the margin". People underestimate what is necessary to provide reasonable levels of information symmetry, a just legal system, what constitutes fraud and false advertising, and so on. In the real world, you have mega corps in one corner and individuals in another, so the game is never as fair as "I trade you my tomatoes for your oranges" leads you to believe. As a result, there's a wide range of opinions amongst free marketers. The loudest tend to be accepting of things like insider trading, sex work and even organ selling, although that's likely not representative of people who self-identify with free market ideology.
- user3939382 4y ago
  The system of the Roman Republic had term limits, no corporate lobbying, and no political parties, and they still had all kinds of corruption and problems. My theory is that any political system will inevitably inherit the characteristics of its constituent parts, human beings, who are almost always corrupt or corruptible. It's not due to coincidence that government corruption by the rich has been unsolved for thousands of years, across completely different civilizations, cultures, and places.
  - klabb3 4y ago
    > corruption by the rich has been unsolved for thousands of years I guess we found the root cause :)
  - worik 4y ago
    > no corporate lobbying > no political parties Really? I doubt it. I am no history scholar, but lobbying and grouping are so pervasive now I find it hard to believe they did not happen there and then
    - user3939382 4y ago
jollybean 4y ago
? I can't believe there are still people who don't grasp that he's right. The free market has 'train crashes' just like the highway has 'car crashes'. Most things of value are created by regulated markets. We tend to only intervene when there are ugly monopoly areas (single access rights), and where pricing/elasticity cause problems (healthcare). I mean you're literally on a site create but ultra captilists. That said, there's no substitute for 'regular morality' I mean, beyond legalities etc.. I think it's assumptive in a lot of our systems, we just don't talk about it enough.
tablespoon 4y ago
It's also seems self-contradictory. Another bit of free-market dogma is the economy is so complicated no one can understand it, but if that's the case how can anyone tell that "goods and services represent tangible benefit to people, market prices represent the true value of goods in society, and wages represent the value that a worker provides to others" and not bullshit games, like the consulting described in the OP. I feel it just collapses into circular reasoning: "define what the market does as good and true, therefore what the market does is good and true."
- Dracophoenix 4y ago
  Your problem is plainly answered by Hayek in The Use of Knowledge in Society

refurb 4y ago

Saying "train wrecks" to disprove the point is like saying "A glance through history shows the aftermath of countless modern medicine train crashes." I don't know about you, but despite the "train wrecks" in modern medicine, I'm still a believer.

digb 4y ago

I mean they're basically a college student given the YOE and where this was published, sounds like the kid got mugged by reality. But yea, definitely jaw-droppingly naive.

akira2501 4y ago
> sounds like the kid got mugged by reality It's curmudgeonly of me, but he got mugged by MIT; which operated very much like the consultancy he went to work for. Promise everything, give the client what they want, ignore the obvious problems in the proposal and let the client take the hit if that's what they want so desperately.. just give them the rubber stamp. So, he took his MIT rubber stamp out into the real world and found out how much "double class load" was NOT like "actual paid work."

lozenge 4y ago

Well, he did mention monopoly effects and negative externalities, but only as if they are minor "extra terms" rather than completely disproving his starting point.

Bloating 4y ago

yeah, this is just in issue in the US due to our "free markets". Never ever happens in countries with real socialism Also, look up at the green grass

klabb3 4y ago

There are indeed those that are shockingly naive, and they are likely the majority. To give the benefit of the doubt though, it is widely accepted, even within say the Austrian school, that free markets need guardrails, and those guardrails are kinda like Fermat's famous "I'd write out the proof but there's no space in the margin". People underestimate what is necessary to provide reasonable levels of information symmetry, a just legal system, what constitutes fraud and false advertising, and so on. In the real world, you have mega corps in one corner and individuals in another, so the game is never as fair as "I trade you my tomatoes for your oranges" leads you to believe. As a result, there's a wide range of opinions amongst free marketers. The loudest tend to be accepting of things like insider trading, sex work and even organ selling, although that's likely not representative of people who self-identify with free market ideology.

user3939382 4y ago
The system of the Roman Republic had term limits, no corporate lobbying, and no political parties, and they still had all kinds of corruption and problems. My theory is that any political system will inevitably inherit the characteristics of its constituent parts, human beings, who are almost always corrupt or corruptible. It's not due to coincidence that government corruption by the rich has been unsolved for thousands of years, across completely different civilizations, cultures, and places.
- klabb3 4y ago
  > corruption by the rich has been unsolved for thousands of years I guess we found the root cause :)
- worik 4y ago
  > no corporate lobbying > no political parties Really? I doubt it. I am no history scholar, but lobbying and grouping are so pervasive now I find it hard to believe they did not happen there and then
  - user3939382 4y ago

jollybean 4y ago

? I can't believe there are still people who don't grasp that he's right. The free market has 'train crashes' just like the highway has 'car crashes'. Most things of value are created by regulated markets. We tend to only intervene when there are ugly monopoly areas (single access rights), and where pricing/elasticity cause problems (healthcare). I mean you're literally on a site create but ultra captilists. That said, there's no substitute for 'regular morality' I mean, beyond legalities etc.. I think it's assumptive in a lot of our systems, we just don't talk about it enough.

tablespoon 4y ago

It's also seems self-contradictory. Another bit of free-market dogma is the economy is so complicated no one can understand it, but if that's the case how can anyone tell that "goods and services represent tangible benefit to people, market prices represent the true value of goods in society, and wages represent the value that a worker provides to others" and not bullshit games, like the consulting described in the OP. I feel it just collapses into circular reasoning: "define what the market does as good and true, therefore what the market does is good and true."

Dracophoenix 4y ago
Your problem is plainly answered by Hayek in The Use of Knowledge in Society