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> Realisticly they almost always will be, but I would have liked to see the panels designed to be constructed a little more simply - you will always have to mak
by the_other 4y ago
> Realisticly they almost always will be, but I would have liked to see the panels designed to be constructed a little more simply - you will always have to make changes on site.
I feel this way about the current trend in plant-based meat replacements. I’ll trust the hype about lower carbon footprint, but they take food production further into industrialisation and profit motive territory which was, in part, how we got into this environmental crisis in the first place.
- Jeff_Brown 4y agoI live in Colombia, where ag tech is a lot farther behind. The profit motive for farmers here is as strong as anywhere. They wouldn't farm if it wasn't for the money. But the lack of industrialización means that more people are invested in the activity, producing less output, and living in poverty.
- merlinran 4y agoIndustrialized agriculture would push most people out of land (no longer need that many people), and if the people can't find alternative for living they would be even poorer. If there are better alternatives, peasant farmers will chase them anyway. There are also better ways for agriculture which can regenerate soil, maintain biodiversity while at the same time harvest more.
- Jeff_Brown 4y ago> Industrialized agriculture would push most people out of land (no longer need that many people), and if the people can't find alternative for living they would be even poorer. The places where industrial agriculture has taken off, that seems not to be the story. Grandparents in China are thrilled to see their children working city jobs. It's a hard life still, but much easier than they had. > regenerate soil, maintain biodiversity while at the same time harvest more. I very much want those things. And corporations do sometimes make stupid decisions. But it's hard for me to believe there are such free lunches on a large scale. If there were, some enterprising soul ought to go start a business exploiting them, make a killing, put Monsanto out of business, etc.
- ClumsyPilot 4y agobiodiversity doesnt make you money Also there are many potential biotech revolutions - like China developing rice that can use salt water - if our crops could use seawater like the mangroves, that wouod be huge. Another massive thing, is perrenial crops - meaning you dont have to plant them every year. There are perrenial cousins of our staple foods like wheat, but firstly they are harder to automatically harvest/manage, secondly they do not benefit from thousands of years of selective breeding. So we gave to invest massive amounts of money to ger their yields up, and even if you do, there is no guarantee consumers will eat them - they taste a bit different
- Jeff_Brown 4y agoIf they're productive enough, they'll be cheap enough that consumers will accept a little taste difference. Fun fact: Italians hated tomatoes for centuries. https://lithub.com/unhealthy-smelly-and-strange-why-italians-avoided-tomatoes-for-centuries/ https://lithub.com/unhealthy-smelly-and-strange-why-italians...
- ClumsyPilot 4y agoYou are talking a muti-billion investment that will take decades to yield fruit, that people might hate the taste for for centuries? When most corporate leaders don't care what happens 2 years from now?
- hpkuarg 4y agoOne man's environmental crisis is another man being lifted out of crushing poverty by the abundant energy and wealth produced by that same industrialization and profit motive. Unless you think cavemen shouldn't have burned sticks for warmth out of concern for CO2 emissions, the way out for humanity will be through (further technological gains enabling more energy expended per capita, hopefully cleanly), not backwards.
- wizofaus 4y agoBurning sticks isn't increasing the amount of carbon in the natural cycle (unlike digging up fossil fuels and burning them). Though obviously if enough people burn them faster than nature can regrow them it's still a problem, such that 8 billion of us returning to trees as our primary source of fuel would be pretty catastrophic.
- the_other 4y ago> One man's environmental crisis is another man being lifted out of crushing poverty by the abundant energy and wealth produced by that same industrialization and profit motive. The problem with that is it's only one man that gets the benefit. Yes, I'm twisting your words a bit. The point I'm making is that these profit motives tend towards capital hoarding by individuals. _That_ process tends towards selfish decision making where the only long-term benefit is the individual and their family, often at the cost of short and long term damage or hinderance to other people and the environment. I confess I make many such decisions myself, but it's very hard not within our current economic system. I'm not arguing for a return to some imaginary glory projected onto images from the past at all. I'm trying to feel out ideas for future systems more of us can engage with comfortably, which don't promote the double hit of individual-focused power imbalances and environmental damage.
- baggy_trough 4y agoHow do plant-based meats take food production "further into .. profit motive territory"?
- the_other 4y agoTry making them at home.
- baggy_trough 4y agoI can't make a cow at home either, or an avocado.