4 ms·

You still need to drive places, which is the least efficient method of mass transportation. An entire infrastructure needs to be built and maintained for cars,

by oblio 4y ago

You still need to drive places, which is the least efficient method of mass transportation. An entire infrastructure needs to be built and maintained for cars, which is super wasteful and in almost every country is pushing everyone into debt that is just punted into the future. Sure, convenient for individuals but absolutely not sustainable for society, nor the planet. Even with electric cars and green energy. The insane cost of cars: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ztHZj6QNlkM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ztHZj6QNlkM The hard truth is that if we don't want to abandon our comfortable modern lifestyles, 80-90% of us will have to live in dense cities and use mass transportation 95% of the time.

starkd 4y ago
He just proposed a housing solution. Now you are complaining because he hasn't produced a transportation solution as well?
- oblio 4y ago
  Those are tied. It's impossible to service low density housing efficiently.
- goodpoint 4y ago
  That's not the point. Proposing a housing solution that encourage unsustainable transportation is not sustainable.
nlittlepoole 4y ago
I agree with you but I think one thing that might help people fear this change less is reiterating that the density necessary isn't Manhattan or Downtown Chicago. There are a lot of ways to make an efficient urban area without being a massive megalopolis. Neighborhoods like Park Slope in Brooklyn or Sunset in SF are good examples. Multifamily housing doesn't have to mean high rises. People also don't have to live in what we think of as cities at all. Rural living is fine if people live closer together in those areas. Such that they live in walkable towns that don't require driving and can be easily connected to other towns and cities via a bus or train. Europe is much better at this but you see vestiges in New England. It's just nobody should really be living beyond walking or biking distance of core services (transport, shopping, etc). The benefit for those who love nature is more untampered natural beauty in the surrounding areas. If anyone has ever been to a place like Banff it's lovely when fine right.
- oblio 4y ago
  Someone posted here that the maximum density with this type of housing is 3 stories, 75 dwellings per hectare, so about 7500 dwellings per square kilometer. At 3 stories, that has to be at least 6 people per dwelling, so about 45k people per square kilometer. Let's cut that to 5k people per square kilometer to account for infrastructure, shops, schools, etc, it still seems reasonable. We don't even need more than that on average, we don't need Hong Kongs everywhere. "Brownstones" will do :-)
mrcartmeneses 4y ago
Which is great. Living in cities in Europe is fantastic. Even the towns are great in some countries with great rail and tram connections
- nemo44x 4y ago
  Who wants to use a train/tram to haul kids and their things around? Do you really think it's possible to haul an infant, a toddler, and a 4 year-old around and all their things using a train that will only get you so close and now you have to walk another 4 blocks? Who wants to do that? A home with space and a nice sized yard and an automobile to travel around in is great. It's nice to have a local train too to get into the adjacent metropolis, etc.
  - oblio 4y ago
    What are we talking about? Long trips? Short trips? What's the use case? For short stuff, bakfiets. For the second part, sure, why not? Get a baby buggy for multiple kids. Walking is also good for you. Also, is all of this happening as a single parent? How many single parents with 3 kids are even out there? 0.00001% of the population? All these problems are solvable. With probably less than half the money spent on car infrastructure and 5% the pollution.
    - nemo44x 4y ago
      Ok it’s raining or snowing or very hot outside - I’m not throwing 3 kids into a wheelbarrow fitted to a bike and doing that. What an awful way to live. Why does it matter how many parents? One could be away or working and the other has to go 5 miles to Costco or whatever. Your little bike things don’t work. Also there are lots of single parents with 3+ kids. I don’t want your terrible solution or way of life. I like having a large home with a large lawn and a large SUV to drive my family where we want when we want. I take trains and walk too and use strollers of course. But that’s like 20% of the time. Your comment reads like a person who doesn’t have kids.
      - 4y ago

by oblio 4y ago

starkd 4y ago

He just proposed a housing solution. Now you are complaining because he hasn't produced a transportation solution as well?

oblio 4y ago
Those are tied. It's impossible to service low density housing efficiently.
goodpoint 4y ago
That's not the point. Proposing a housing solution that encourage unsustainable transportation is not sustainable.

nlittlepoole 4y ago

I agree with you but I think one thing that might help people fear this change less is reiterating that the density necessary isn't Manhattan or Downtown Chicago. There are a lot of ways to make an efficient urban area without being a massive megalopolis. Neighborhoods like Park Slope in Brooklyn or Sunset in SF are good examples. Multifamily housing doesn't have to mean high rises. People also don't have to live in what we think of as cities at all. Rural living is fine if people live closer together in those areas. Such that they live in walkable towns that don't require driving and can be easily connected to other towns and cities via a bus or train. Europe is much better at this but you see vestiges in New England. It's just nobody should really be living beyond walking or biking distance of core services (transport, shopping, etc). The benefit for those who love nature is more untampered natural beauty in the surrounding areas. If anyone has ever been to a place like Banff it's lovely when fine right.

oblio 4y ago
Someone posted here that the maximum density with this type of housing is 3 stories, 75 dwellings per hectare, so about 7500 dwellings per square kilometer. At 3 stories, that has to be at least 6 people per dwelling, so about 45k people per square kilometer. Let's cut that to 5k people per square kilometer to account for infrastructure, shops, schools, etc, it still seems reasonable. We don't even need more than that on average, we don't need Hong Kongs everywhere. "Brownstones" will do :-)

mrcartmeneses 4y ago

Which is great. Living in cities in Europe is fantastic. Even the towns are great in some countries with great rail and tram connections

nemo44x 4y ago
Who wants to use a train/tram to haul kids and their things around? Do you really think it's possible to haul an infant, a toddler, and a 4 year-old around and all their things using a train that will only get you so close and now you have to walk another 4 blocks? Who wants to do that? A home with space and a nice sized yard and an automobile to travel around in is great. It's nice to have a local train too to get into the adjacent metropolis, etc.
- oblio 4y ago
  What are we talking about? Long trips? Short trips? What's the use case? For short stuff, bakfiets. For the second part, sure, why not? Get a baby buggy for multiple kids. Walking is also good for you. Also, is all of this happening as a single parent? How many single parents with 3 kids are even out there? 0.00001% of the population? All these problems are solvable. With probably less than half the money spent on car infrastructure and 5% the pollution.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    Ok it’s raining or snowing or very hot outside - I’m not throwing 3 kids into a wheelbarrow fitted to a bike and doing that. What an awful way to live. Why does it matter how many parents? One could be away or working and the other has to go 5 miles to Costco or whatever. Your little bike things don’t work. Also there are lots of single parents with 3+ kids. I don’t want your terrible solution or way of life. I like having a large home with a large lawn and a large SUV to drive my family where we want when we want. I take trains and walk too and use strollers of course. But that’s like 20% of the time. Your comment reads like a person who doesn’t have kids.
    - 4y ago