7 ms·

Fucking marketers just want to destroy all sincerity in the world.

gchamonlive 4y ago
It is a matter of semiotics. At one point you need to scale, and you realise you can just manipulate symbols easier. They might at one point have come from sincerity, but industrial scale trumples all.
- kingkawn 4y ago
  Only when empowered by the minds of the unimaginative
  - gchamonlive 4y ago
    Which is...the entire industry? I think this is a very simplistic view. Scale is pervasive in capitalism and not restricted to marketing. It is not being unimaginative, it is just a byproduct of the industry (isonomy and reproducibility over personalisation and personality).
- nicbou 4y ago
  > At one point you need to scale Do you? Is growth so imperative that any end justifies it?
  - gchamonlive 4y ago
    Sure not, but when was it the case in capitalism? It is an illusion to think this kind of thing is reserved to marketing
- banannaise 4y ago
  And thus the simulation of sincerity leads us even deeper into the simulation. Baudrillard strikes again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation
  - gchamonlive 4y ago
    And ultimately into Marcuse, with the Great Refusal.
spaghettiToy 4y ago
Every time I read more about marketing (for my business) it enrages me more. I basically don't use twitter, but I find myself on the platform in rants about how exploitive and manipulative some people are willing to be. There is one company that targets vunerable people with their relatively affordable Veblen goods to make them feel socially insecure if they buy an Android instead. It's so obvious when you read about it, but it's masked in edgy advertising. Reading about a company's marketing strategy is probably not good for my health.
- PopAlongKid 4y ago
  TIL what a Veblen good is. "Apple products are classified as Veblen products, because most often users choose them, guided by the big name of the brand and believing that the possession of this technology will increase their status in society." https://lkrvk.com/the-veblen-effect-how-price-increases-affect-demand/ https://lkrvk.com/the-veblen-effect-how-price-increases-affe...
  - maest 4y ago
    The other way I think about Veblen goods is that when you're purchasing an e.g. Balenciaga shirt, you're paying for 2 things: 1. the shirt 2. you're giving money to Balenciaga to go out there and tell people how great owners of Balenciaga shirts are. You're paying them to do some marketing on your behalf, in a way.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      A logo’d shirt is a poor example of a Veblen good. Per wiki >A Veblen good would be something where the demand increases as the price increases. Shirts with logos are actually priced lower than shirts with logos. They might signal that someone can ship at an outlet mall rather than Walmart, but not much more. All the high end clothing will not have conspicuous logos.
      - mikkergp 4y ago
        I think it heavily depends on the logo. Lots of luxury brands are very conspicuous with their logos. Louis Vuitton comes to mind but specifically with shirts: https://www.saksfifthavenue.com/product/balenciaga-large-fit-short-sleeve-new-scribble-logo-shirt-0400015401776.html?site_refer=CSE_GGLPLA:Mens_Shirts+%26+Tops:Balenciaga&country=US&currency=USD&CSE_CID=G_Saks_PLA_US_Men%27s+Apparel_Designer_Must+Win:Balenciaga&gbraid=0AAAAADO6JtToY-eU3-zC08iwW0mQrOUfz&gbraid=0AAAAADO6JtToY-eU3-zC08iwW0mQrOUfz&gclid=Cj0KCQjwguGYBhDRARIsAHgRm4-upf8vZjyh5QFcBPZrlHmzZ9dFoW7AW26tnesbbvICeZZZDtHSN7waAuGkEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds https://www.saksfifthavenue.com/product/balenciaga-large-fit... I wonder if there’s a dip with mid/high end products, but the “very high end” “designer” brands are very logo centric.
Silverback_VII 4y ago
Another interpretation would be that they are just uncovering the fact that behind many nice and kind behaviours lie some very selfish interests. In every human interaction you can perceive the battle over power, social status and personal interests. It's just the way it is. Some people can see it, others not or just don't want to.
- boringg 4y ago
  True enough. Even though i can see it doesn't mean it isnt disappointing. Tangentially related, do you think some people can see/feel power and are drawn in while other people are relatively immune to it? There are some people in the world that i see have a very good ability to read power etc while others are hopeless (for better or worse). Seems similar to your comment thats why i ask
  - Silverback_VII 4y ago
    I think some people are way better at seeing these mechanics at play than others. it's what is called social intelligence I think. Yet it also can be midly depressing to see your friend trying to subtly decrease your social status by some harmless remarks when a woman is in the vicinity. People who do not see it are most easily exploited by it. For example a person with low self-esteem who does (often unconsciously) signal it to others even if it worsens his situation even more.
- bheadmaster 4y ago
  > In every human interaction you can perceive the battle over power, social status and personal interests. I agree with this in general - but some interactions really are more about mutual feeling-good, than about power struggles. Of course, those interactions are necessarily with people who are close to us. I think the better way to put this would be: In every interaction *with strangers* you can perceive the battle over power, social status and personal interests.
  - Silverback_VII 4y ago
    Not sure if your statement is true even if I can see some relationships to be mutually beneficial. However, the term frenenemy exists for a reason. I think some part of oneself is always calculating one's own value and power in relation to others. Some of these mechanics only become apparent if there is a big change in a relationship like one of your friend or family member becoming very successful for example.
boringg 4y ago
I had the same response. It should really read - sincere sales increase sales - thats the model. Whatever is considered to be the next sincere thing will be emulated by marketing and ruined.
- afarrell 4y ago
  That plus "Receiving gratitude has an outsized impact on other's mental health."
- linspace 4y ago
  Sincerity under payment has to be taken for what it is. I expect and appreciate to be treated nicely when going to a restaurant but I'm under no illusion that it's because I'm going to pay for it, otherwise I doubt all that people would be cooking, serving and cleaning afterwards with a smile in their face while I sit there saying thank you.
oxfordmale 4y ago
In a few months, the headline will be: Handwritten thank you notes no longer increase sales
- cseleborg 4y ago
  So once everybody has automated this, the next level will be the handwritten note with a personal detail, which will increase (repeat) sales. Back in the day, I used to write a handwritten note with every single box I sent out. Since I had often had a conversation with the customer prior to that, I could often include some personal detail, showing that the message was not generic but truly written for that person. (I did have a generic message that I would use in a minority of cases.) It does take a little bit of dedication and love of the customer to do this over and over again, so I'm not convinced shady, unscrupulous marketers would do it. Caveat: My business eventually failed, so...
- bluGill 4y ago
  That depends on if they are handwritten, or some font that looks sort of like handwritten. At least until/unless AI can write thank yous that pass the Turing test. Right now the effort vs reward of a thank you is not worth it for most sales, and people can pick out computer generated thank yous. Even then, Wal*Mart will never send you a thank you note - the cost of postage alone is too high. However car salesmen have long ago figured out it is worth writing a thank you - it only takes a few repeat customers to make the time and postage worth it. That said, if you are a small business a handwritten thank you is good advice. Very few small business run a many customers with a low profit business model (only retail), and as such you are probably in one area where a handwritten thank you will help.
ekianjo 4y ago
Time to roll out the pen plotters to make fake handwriting!
- gregsadetsky 4y ago
  I won’t post links but if you google “handwritten notes automation”, the top “results” are all ads from companies doing exactly that. One of the mottos I saw - “Personalized Handwritten Direct Mail at Scale” (!) :)
- dubya 4y ago
  This has been going on for a while. I've seen it mostly in the "I will pay cash for your house" industry. The process has definitely gotten more convincing; before, all the letter shapes would be the same, but now there's enough variation that it's plausible that these notes are handwritten if it weren't for the context.
deltarholamda 4y ago
Well, yes, but... take away from this something less grim. It's something a friend who was in marketing used to say to me all of the time: "good customer service is the best marketing, and it's often very nearly free." Chick-fil-a figured this out years ago. Their employees are required to be nice and kind, and they can get fired for having a crappy attitude. This sounds awful, Stepford-wifeish, but in reality it improves the working environment for the employees and for the customers, and it costs practically nothing. The stores aren't wildly successful simply because their (let's be honest) sorta bland chicken sandwiches are indescribably delicious. The last interaction you have with the store is a pleasant one, and that's why you're happy to go back. (Raising Cane's does this as well, and their chicken is better.) Sending out thank-you notes is relatively cheap, and it has an impact.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- pradn 4y ago
  Yup until recently, they had no real competition in the fast food chicken sandwich game. Popeyes and McDonalds have caught up some amount, but not fully. They also don’t have waffle fries. In college, the line for the Chic Fil A was impossibly long every single day because the food was great. It also somehow doesn’t give you as much of the bad feeling you usually get after eating fast food. The midtown locations in New York are also incredibly efficient. They take orders on iPads in the line and the order is done by the time you get to the front.
- motbus 4y ago
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  Sending out a “hand” written thank you letter long after a transaction is completed and real time customer service at the time of transaction are not comparable actions of customer service.
  - ignaloidas 4y ago
daniel-cussen 4y ago
No but this is legitimate. You're supposed to do this and it is known to increase sales because it is virtuous--if it's virtuous, people will judge by the calligraphy.
sfmike 4y ago
We sincerely enjoy their TT enough to sincerely contemplate automating it so that everyone can receive appreciation :)
hk1337 4y ago
Or you could take it as, authentic sincerity increases sales.
- hirundo 4y ago
  > authentic sincerity increases sales If you can fake that you've got it made. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/12/05/fake-honesty/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/12/05/fake-honesty/

It is a matter of semiotics. At one point you need to scale, and you realise you can just manipulate symbols easier. They might at one point have come from sincerity, but industrial scale trumples all.

kingkawn 4y ago
Only when empowered by the minds of the unimaginative
- gchamonlive 4y ago
  Which is...the entire industry? I think this is a very simplistic view. Scale is pervasive in capitalism and not restricted to marketing. It is not being unimaginative, it is just a byproduct of the industry (isonomy and reproducibility over personalisation and personality).
nicbou 4y ago
> At one point you need to scale Do you? Is growth so imperative that any end justifies it?
- gchamonlive 4y ago
  Sure not, but when was it the case in capitalism? It is an illusion to think this kind of thing is reserved to marketing
banannaise 4y ago
And thus the simulation of sincerity leads us even deeper into the simulation. Baudrillard strikes again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation
- gchamonlive 4y ago
  And ultimately into Marcuse, with the Great Refusal.

spaghettiToy 4y ago

Every time I read more about marketing (for my business) it enrages me more. I basically don't use twitter, but I find myself on the platform in rants about how exploitive and manipulative some people are willing to be. There is one company that targets vunerable people with their relatively affordable Veblen goods to make them feel socially insecure if they buy an Android instead. It's so obvious when you read about it, but it's masked in edgy advertising. Reading about a company's marketing strategy is probably not good for my health.

PopAlongKid 4y ago
TIL what a Veblen good is. "Apple products are classified as Veblen products, because most often users choose them, guided by the big name of the brand and believing that the possession of this technology will increase their status in society." https://lkrvk.com/the-veblen-effect-how-price-increases-affect-demand/ https://lkrvk.com/the-veblen-effect-how-price-increases-affe...
- maest 4y ago
  The other way I think about Veblen goods is that when you're purchasing an e.g. Balenciaga shirt, you're paying for 2 things: 1. the shirt 2. you're giving money to Balenciaga to go out there and tell people how great owners of Balenciaga shirts are. You're paying them to do some marketing on your behalf, in a way.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    A logo’d shirt is a poor example of a Veblen good. Per wiki >A Veblen good would be something where the demand increases as the price increases. Shirts with logos are actually priced lower than shirts with logos. They might signal that someone can ship at an outlet mall rather than Walmart, but not much more. All the high end clothing will not have conspicuous logos.
    - mikkergp 4y ago
      I think it heavily depends on the logo. Lots of luxury brands are very conspicuous with their logos. Louis Vuitton comes to mind but specifically with shirts: https://www.saksfifthavenue.com/product/balenciaga-large-fit-short-sleeve-new-scribble-logo-shirt-0400015401776.html?site_refer=CSE_GGLPLA:Mens_Shirts+%26+Tops:Balenciaga&country=US&currency=USD&CSE_CID=G_Saks_PLA_US_Men%27s+Apparel_Designer_Must+Win:Balenciaga&gbraid=0AAAAADO6JtToY-eU3-zC08iwW0mQrOUfz&gbraid=0AAAAADO6JtToY-eU3-zC08iwW0mQrOUfz&gclid=Cj0KCQjwguGYBhDRARIsAHgRm4-upf8vZjyh5QFcBPZrlHmzZ9dFoW7AW26tnesbbvICeZZZDtHSN7waAuGkEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds https://www.saksfifthavenue.com/product/balenciaga-large-fit... I wonder if there’s a dip with mid/high end products, but the “very high end” “designer” brands are very logo centric.

Silverback_VII 4y ago

Another interpretation would be that they are just uncovering the fact that behind many nice and kind behaviours lie some very selfish interests. In every human interaction you can perceive the battle over power, social status and personal interests. It's just the way it is. Some people can see it, others not or just don't want to.

boringg 4y ago
True enough. Even though i can see it doesn't mean it isnt disappointing. Tangentially related, do you think some people can see/feel power and are drawn in while other people are relatively immune to it? There are some people in the world that i see have a very good ability to read power etc while others are hopeless (for better or worse). Seems similar to your comment thats why i ask
- Silverback_VII 4y ago
  I think some people are way better at seeing these mechanics at play than others. it's what is called social intelligence I think. Yet it also can be midly depressing to see your friend trying to subtly decrease your social status by some harmless remarks when a woman is in the vicinity. People who do not see it are most easily exploited by it. For example a person with low self-esteem who does (often unconsciously) signal it to others even if it worsens his situation even more.
bheadmaster 4y ago
> In every human interaction you can perceive the battle over power, social status and personal interests. I agree with this in general - but some interactions really are more about mutual feeling-good, than about power struggles. Of course, those interactions are necessarily with people who are close to us. I think the better way to put this would be: In every interaction *with strangers* you can perceive the battle over power, social status and personal interests.
- Silverback_VII 4y ago
  Not sure if your statement is true even if I can see some relationships to be mutually beneficial. However, the term frenenemy exists for a reason. I think some part of oneself is always calculating one's own value and power in relation to others. Some of these mechanics only become apparent if there is a big change in a relationship like one of your friend or family member becoming very successful for example.

boringg 4y ago

I had the same response. It should really read - sincere sales increase sales - thats the model. Whatever is considered to be the next sincere thing will be emulated by marketing and ruined.

afarrell 4y ago
That plus "Receiving gratitude has an outsized impact on other's mental health."
linspace 4y ago
Sincerity under payment has to be taken for what it is. I expect and appreciate to be treated nicely when going to a restaurant but I'm under no illusion that it's because I'm going to pay for it, otherwise I doubt all that people would be cooking, serving and cleaning afterwards with a smile in their face while I sit there saying thank you.

oxfordmale 4y ago

In a few months, the headline will be: Handwritten thank you notes no longer increase sales

cseleborg 4y ago
So once everybody has automated this, the next level will be the handwritten note with a personal detail, which will increase (repeat) sales. Back in the day, I used to write a handwritten note with every single box I sent out. Since I had often had a conversation with the customer prior to that, I could often include some personal detail, showing that the message was not generic but truly written for that person. (I did have a generic message that I would use in a minority of cases.) It does take a little bit of dedication and love of the customer to do this over and over again, so I'm not convinced shady, unscrupulous marketers would do it. Caveat: My business eventually failed, so...
bluGill 4y ago
That depends on if they are handwritten, or some font that looks sort of like handwritten. At least until/unless AI can write thank yous that pass the Turing test. Right now the effort vs reward of a thank you is not worth it for most sales, and people can pick out computer generated thank yous. Even then, Wal*Mart will never send you a thank you note - the cost of postage alone is too high. However car salesmen have long ago figured out it is worth writing a thank you - it only takes a few repeat customers to make the time and postage worth it. That said, if you are a small business a handwritten thank you is good advice. Very few small business run a many customers with a low profit business model (only retail), and as such you are probably in one area where a handwritten thank you will help.

ekianjo 4y ago

Time to roll out the pen plotters to make fake handwriting!

gregsadetsky 4y ago
I won’t post links but if you google “handwritten notes automation”, the top “results” are all ads from companies doing exactly that. One of the mottos I saw - “Personalized Handwritten Direct Mail at Scale” (!) :)
dubya 4y ago
This has been going on for a while. I've seen it mostly in the "I will pay cash for your house" industry. The process has definitely gotten more convincing; before, all the letter shapes would be the same, but now there's enough variation that it's plausible that these notes are handwritten if it weren't for the context.

deltarholamda 4y ago

Well, yes, but... take away from this something less grim. It's something a friend who was in marketing used to say to me all of the time: "good customer service is the best marketing, and it's often very nearly free." Chick-fil-a figured this out years ago. Their employees are required to be nice and kind, and they can get fired for having a crappy attitude. This sounds awful, Stepford-wifeish, but in reality it improves the working environment for the employees and for the customers, and it costs practically nothing. The stores aren't wildly successful simply because their (let's be honest) sorta bland chicken sandwiches are indescribably delicious. The last interaction you have with the store is a pleasant one, and that's why you're happy to go back. (Raising Cane's does this as well, and their chicken is better.) Sending out thank-you notes is relatively cheap, and it has an impact.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
pradn 4y ago
Yup until recently, they had no real competition in the fast food chicken sandwich game. Popeyes and McDonalds have caught up some amount, but not fully. They also don’t have waffle fries. In college, the line for the Chic Fil A was impossibly long every single day because the food was great. It also somehow doesn’t give you as much of the bad feeling you usually get after eating fast food. The midtown locations in New York are also incredibly efficient. They take orders on iPads in the line and the order is done by the time you get to the front.
motbus 4y ago
lotsofpulp 4y ago
Sending out a “hand” written thank you letter long after a transaction is completed and real time customer service at the time of transaction are not comparable actions of customer service.
- ignaloidas 4y ago

daniel-cussen 4y ago

No but this is legitimate. You're supposed to do this and it is known to increase sales because it is virtuous--if it's virtuous, people will judge by the calligraphy.

sfmike 4y ago

We sincerely enjoy their TT enough to sincerely contemplate automating it so that everyone can receive appreciation :)

hk1337 4y ago

Or you could take it as, authentic sincerity increases sales.

hirundo 4y ago
> authentic sincerity increases sales If you can fake that you've got it made. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/12/05/fake-honesty/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/12/05/fake-honesty/