4 ms·

Not sure what the obsession with hydrogen is about. It's inefficient to produce and difficult to store.

by pydry 4y ago

ncmncm 4y ago
The article is specifically about an efficient process to produce it at point of use, so it need not be stored.
- pydry 4y ago
  The first paragraph contradicts you: >is the most promising energy carrier of the low-carbon economy. ^_ energy carrier != production at the point of use. The article seems to be about dealing with a supposed shortage of fresh water to make the hydrogen from. If this is solved it changes nothing.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    The authors' speculations on how hydrogen may be used are irrelevant to the substantive content of the article. There is no shadow of doubt about whether hydrogen production will be massively important in the immediate future, so better ways to make it are equally as important.
- dang 4y ago
  Please edit swipes out of your comments here. This comment would be just fine without that last bit. Edit: We've had to ask you this kind of thing many times before. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here? I don't want to ban you, because your substantive comments are great, but this is not ok: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30890352 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30890352 (April 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26290876 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26290876 (Feb 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22199357 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22199357 (Jan 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22087086 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22087086 (Jan 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21799929 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21799929 (Dec 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21709427 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21709427 (Dec 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21667970 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21667970 (Nov 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20257959 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20257959 (June 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20188474 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20188474 (June 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20112003 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20112003 (June 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19945156 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19945156 (May 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19334737 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19334737 (March 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19334734 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19334734 (March 2019)
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    Done.
luca_null 4y ago
So, here in Spain, electric cars can't be the solution for the vehicles and having hydrogen cars would certainly be the way to go, it seems. We can use already built infrastructure and we don't need a charger on every single street. In Spain, 70% of the vehicles stays on the street overnight[1], that means a charger every roughly 10 meters. Imagine the amount of copper necessary to cover that. Here's a study in Valencia to install electric chargers on 3 streets. It's going to cost 200k€. https://contrataciondelestado.es/wps/wcm/connect/761db8fc-9aab-4d15-a438-fe37918f0cf9/DOC20190729112507Proyecto_instalacion_Puntos_Recarga_EDUSI__1_de_2_.pdf?MOD=AJPERES https://contrataciondelestado.es/wps/wcm/connect/761db8fc-9a... [1]: https://www.lavanguardia.com/motor/20211027/7818499/dudas-compra-coche-electrico-espanoles-cochesnet-brl.html#:~:text=Hace%20falta%2C%20por%20lo%20tanto,burocracia%20que%20impide%20su%20instalaci%C3%B3n https://www.lavanguardia.com/motor/20211027/7818499/dudas-co....
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > In Spain, 70% of the vehicles stays on the street overnight[1], that means a charger every roughly 10 meters. Imagine the amount of copper necessary to cover that. Not every single one of these cars needs to be charged all the time - and in any case, most people drive short enough distances that they can be charged at a simple 230V outlet over night, which means it would be enough to add outlets to existing street lights. Alternatively, employers, shopping malls etc. can provide charging opportunities in the exact same way. The only place where high-power chargers are needed is for people commuting long distances. In any case, the goal should be to take as much individual car traffic off the streets as possible by providing usable and affordable mass transit as well as usable bike infrastructure.
  - CPLX 4y ago
    > that means a charger every roughly 10 meters. Imagine the amount of copper necessary to cover that. I can imagine streetlights existing so it doesn’t seem like much of a stretch from there
    - luca_null 4y ago
audunw 4y ago
But it's essential to de-carbonization. Hydrogen isn't just about fuels, it's about making fertilizers (ammonia), steel, e-fuels, etc. Obviously, as an energy carrier, you'd use batteries whenever possible. But there are many places where we'd need hydrogen, or fuels made with the help of hydrogen, to get the necessary energy density. Hydrogen ferries and trains are in service, or being put into service, right now. If batteries was a viable, cheaper alternative in those specific cases, it would have been used. It's obviously not that hard to store. Norway has both battery and hydrogen ferries, what's used depends on the required range. That said, a hydrogen gas station exploded near me, so yeah. There's definitely challenges, and it shouldn't be used where it doesn't make sense.
- memling 4y ago
  > That said, a hydrogen gas station exploded near me, so yeah. There's definitely challenges, and it shouldn't be used where it doesn't make sense. Why did this happen, out of curiosity? Do you have a linked source?
- Workaccount2 4y ago
  I'm wondering if there is a big asterisks next to that "Hydrogen is cheaper* than batteries in these use cases" *when hydrogen is sourced from fossil fuels and/or fossil fuel powered generation
- jbu 4y ago
  This has been a good resource re: what h2 is useful for, and what is hype: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/clean-hydrogen-ladder-v40-michael-liebreich https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/clean-hydrogen-ladder-v40-mic...
Schroedingersat 4y ago
It's cheaper to store in bulk than batteries (so far). And there are a variety of methods that almost-work to make it denser volume wise. The appeal is mass energy density, making it work is so far mostly elusive.
gmm1990 4y ago
I think it makes more sense to use than batteries at like wind turbines to store excess energy. looks like 80% efficiency for electrolysis weight of storage wouldn't be a huge factor for non moving applications
lossolo 4y ago
Few companies are working on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGe8R0N20ps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGe8R0N20ps

Not sure what the obsession with hydrogen is about. It's inefficient to produce and difficult to store.

by pydry 4y ago

Not sure what the obsession with hydrogen is about. It's inefficient to produce and difficult to store.

ncmncm 4y ago

The article is specifically about an efficient process to produce it at point of use, so it need not be stored.

pydry 4y ago
The first paragraph contradicts you: >is the most promising energy carrier of the low-carbon economy. ^_ energy carrier != production at the point of use. The article seems to be about dealing with a supposed shortage of fresh water to make the hydrogen from. If this is solved it changes nothing.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  The authors' speculations on how hydrogen may be used are irrelevant to the substantive content of the article. There is no shadow of doubt about whether hydrogen production will be massively important in the immediate future, so better ways to make it are equally as important.
dang 4y ago
Please edit swipes out of your comments here. This comment would be just fine without that last bit. Edit: We've had to ask you this kind of thing many times before. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here? I don't want to ban you, because your substantive comments are great, but this is not ok: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30890352 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30890352 (April 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26290876 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26290876 (Feb 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22199357 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22199357 (Jan 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22087086 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22087086 (Jan 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21799929 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21799929 (Dec 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21709427 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21709427 (Dec 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21667970 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21667970 (Nov 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20257959 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20257959 (June 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20188474 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20188474 (June 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20112003 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20112003 (June 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19945156 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19945156 (May 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19334737 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19334737 (March 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19334734 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19334734 (March 2019)
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Done.

luca_null 4y ago

So, here in Spain, electric cars can't be the solution for the vehicles and having hydrogen cars would certainly be the way to go, it seems. We can use already built infrastructure and we don't need a charger on every single street. In Spain, 70% of the vehicles stays on the street overnight[1], that means a charger every roughly 10 meters. Imagine the amount of copper necessary to cover that. Here's a study in Valencia to install electric chargers on 3 streets. It's going to cost 200k€. https://contrataciondelestado.es/wps/wcm/connect/761db8fc-9aab-4d15-a438-fe37918f0cf9/DOC20190729112507Proyecto_instalacion_Puntos_Recarga_EDUSI__1_de_2_.pdf?MOD=AJPERES https://contrataciondelestado.es/wps/wcm/connect/761db8fc-9a... [1]: https://www.lavanguardia.com/motor/20211027/7818499/dudas-compra-coche-electrico-espanoles-cochesnet-brl.html#:~:text=Hace%20falta%2C%20por%20lo%20tanto,burocracia%20que%20impide%20su%20instalaci%C3%B3n https://www.lavanguardia.com/motor/20211027/7818499/dudas-co....

mschuster91 4y ago
> In Spain, 70% of the vehicles stays on the street overnight[1], that means a charger every roughly 10 meters. Imagine the amount of copper necessary to cover that. Not every single one of these cars needs to be charged all the time - and in any case, most people drive short enough distances that they can be charged at a simple 230V outlet over night, which means it would be enough to add outlets to existing street lights. Alternatively, employers, shopping malls etc. can provide charging opportunities in the exact same way. The only place where high-power chargers are needed is for people commuting long distances. In any case, the goal should be to take as much individual car traffic off the streets as possible by providing usable and affordable mass transit as well as usable bike infrastructure.
- CPLX 4y ago
  > that means a charger every roughly 10 meters. Imagine the amount of copper necessary to cover that. I can imagine streetlights existing so it doesn’t seem like much of a stretch from there
  - luca_null 4y ago

audunw 4y ago

But it's essential to de-carbonization. Hydrogen isn't just about fuels, it's about making fertilizers (ammonia), steel, e-fuels, etc. Obviously, as an energy carrier, you'd use batteries whenever possible. But there are many places where we'd need hydrogen, or fuels made with the help of hydrogen, to get the necessary energy density. Hydrogen ferries and trains are in service, or being put into service, right now. If batteries was a viable, cheaper alternative in those specific cases, it would have been used. It's obviously not that hard to store. Norway has both battery and hydrogen ferries, what's used depends on the required range. That said, a hydrogen gas station exploded near me, so yeah. There's definitely challenges, and it shouldn't be used where it doesn't make sense.

memling 4y ago
> That said, a hydrogen gas station exploded near me, so yeah. There's definitely challenges, and it shouldn't be used where it doesn't make sense. Why did this happen, out of curiosity? Do you have a linked source?
Workaccount2 4y ago
I'm wondering if there is a big asterisks next to that "Hydrogen is cheaper* than batteries in these use cases" *when hydrogen is sourced from fossil fuels and/or fossil fuel powered generation
jbu 4y ago
This has been a good resource re: what h2 is useful for, and what is hype: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/clean-hydrogen-ladder-v40-michael-liebreich https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/clean-hydrogen-ladder-v40-mic...

Schroedingersat 4y ago

It's cheaper to store in bulk than batteries (so far). And there are a variety of methods that almost-work to make it denser volume wise. The appeal is mass energy density, making it work is so far mostly elusive.

gmm1990 4y ago

I think it makes more sense to use than batteries at like wind turbines to store excess energy. looks like 80% efficiency for electrolysis weight of storage wouldn't be a huge factor for non moving applications

lossolo 4y ago

Few companies are working on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGe8R0N20ps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGe8R0N20ps