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so I get that energy prices are high, and I get that this has a cascading effect on, well, everything. I'm not really sure though that energy prices can be con

so I get that energy prices are high, and I get that this has a cascading effect on, well, everything. I'm not really sure though that energy prices can be controlled by govts. (the comparison with the Poll Tax is somewhat irrelevant because the poll tax was 100% dreamed up by the govt, and was a new tax out of fresh air). Energy is however a commodity, and prices are set internationally either by private companies, or other govts (eg Russia). Yes there are taxes on energy, but that's just taxes, if they don't get the money there, they'll get it somewhere else. So given that the underlying price is set by extra-govt entities, who have plenty of customers elsewhere, I'm not sure that most govts have control over energy they would like. A better long-term solution is to a) Foster the use of less energy overall, better house insulation, electric cars etc and b) grow home-produced energy (wind etc.) if those reduce dependancies on oil and gas then that's likely a nice byproduct. Of course these won't change by Oct 1. So yeah, I get people are hurting, I'm just not sure there's a lot a single nation (which imports energy) can do much about it.

ErrantX 4y ago
I think that it's not true that govt are not a big influence on energy pricing. For example; UK energy costs are currently higher than EU because the govt decommissioned most of our long term gas storage meaning our usage is tied to the current price (hence we've had price shock a lot quicker than the EU). Also government's control the system of marginal pricing which generally was a good system for fair pricing - but with gas costs rocketing is skewing energy costs unduly.
- bruce511 4y ago
  Of course policy and long range planning can greatly affect real energy costs. This can be done on the govt level, or on occasion on the individual level (investing in houses, transport etc that improve energy efficiency.) But a "rent boycott" is typically a short-term even chasing a specific short term outcome. Yes old policies have an effect here, yes new policies will help in the future, but it's not clear what action the host article is trying to accomplish.
dmitri1981 4y ago
> I'm not really sure though that energy prices can be controlled by govts. They cannot set the price, but they can set the market mechanism which produces the prices. The auction mechanism used in UK and the order in which producers with higher CO2 output get switched off first means that electricity price is set by gas powered electricity producers. Govt can and is looking at updating that auction mechanism to decouple electricity prices from gas prices. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1098100/review-electricity-market-arrangements.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
sofixa 4y ago
> I'm not really sure though that energy prices can be controlled by govts. It can. France has set up an electricity price cap, which EDF has bled billions to maintain (compared to the market price) resulting in it's renationalisation. The cap will remain in the foreseeable future. > a) Foster the use of less energy overall, better house insulation, electric cars etc and b) grow home-produced energy (wind etc.) if those reduce dependancies on oil and gas then that's likely a nice byproduct. None of these can be in place in sufficient quantity for this winter, and all have been in progress for years now, depending on the European country. (Stuff like massive tax credits and/or subsidies to insulate/buy an EV/switch to less energy intensive heating/etc.)
Normille 4y ago
>the comparison with the Poll Tax is somewhat irrelevant because the poll tax was 100% dreamed up by the govt... So was the decision to fight an economic war against Europe's major energy supplier >Energy is however a commodity, and prices are set internationally either by private companies, or other govts... What's not been mentioned in the other comments is that, in addition to the 30% price hikes on the actual cost of the electricity/gas we use at home, there has also been a similar price hike on the Standing Charge, which is the daily fee you pay, just for having your home connected to the grid. You continue to pay this even if you don't use any electricity or gas whatsoever. I think this was the straw that broke the camel's back for many people. When the energy companies took advantage of the raising of the energy price cap to hike the costs of the actual energy they supply by 30% that was bad enough. But the fact they also took the opportunity to slap a similar increase on the Standing Charge was despicable.
- danaris 4y ago
  > So was the decision to fight an economic war against Europe's major energy supplier No, that was Russia's choice. They chose to invade Ukraine with the full and inexcusable intent of occupying territory. Opposing this is not that different from opposing the occupation of Poland nearly a century ago, and boohooing about how it hurts the economy is just so transparently self-serving at the expense of the Ukrainian people and everyone else in former Soviet bloc countries, it makes my teeth hurt. What was the UK government's choice was being party to the entrenchment of Russia as Europe's major energy supplier over the course of the past decade or so. That was a very bad idea, but unfortunately, there's not much we can do about it in the short term now.
  - Normille 4y ago
    >No, that was Russia's choice. They chose to invade Ukraine with the full and inexcusable intent of occupying territory... And what has that got to do with our energy supplies? Did we thumb our noses at Saudi Arabia and stop buying their oil,when they started bombing the shit out of Yemen? Have we sanctioned the US --ever!-- for any of the 88 and counting countries they've attacked since the end of the second world war? What's so special about Ukraine that we have to throw our own people under the bus because Ukraine hid behind the US's skirts poking the bear next door with a stick and are now suffering the consequences? >What was the UK government's choice was being party to the entrenchment of Russia as Europe's major energy supplier over the course of the past decade or so. That was a very bad idea No. That was a very good idea. What was a very bad idea was continuing to treat Russia as a leper state, even after the break-up of the Soviet Union and the [relatively!] bloodless 'liberation' of Eastern Europe. Is anyone surprised that Russia has realised "Fuck it. whatever we do, we're still the bad guys here!" and decided they might as well act accordingly. But don't fret. I'm sure the good ol' US of A will be delighted to make up the energy shortfall by selling us as much oil & gas as we can send them wheelbarrows full of cash for, in the future. The fact that it's environmentally insane to ship oil & gas all the way across the Atlantic Ocean, when we could have it cleanly flowing through pipelines from our next-door neighbour is a minor detail.
rich_sasha 4y ago
What I'd like to see is progressive energy cost (or rebate or sth). Have low cost for an amount per person that is sufficient to jest your average house to, dunno, 15 deg C and cook 1 hot meal per day. Have ~market price for the rest. Neither are you, then, forcing people into living in cold damp mouldy houses, nor are you subsidizing people's gas heated jacuzzis again market forces.

ErrantX 4y ago

I think that it's not true that govt are not a big influence on energy pricing. For example; UK energy costs are currently higher than EU because the govt decommissioned most of our long term gas storage meaning our usage is tied to the current price (hence we've had price shock a lot quicker than the EU). Also government's control the system of marginal pricing which generally was a good system for fair pricing - but with gas costs rocketing is skewing energy costs unduly.

bruce511 4y ago
Of course policy and long range planning can greatly affect real energy costs. This can be done on the govt level, or on occasion on the individual level (investing in houses, transport etc that improve energy efficiency.) But a "rent boycott" is typically a short-term even chasing a specific short term outcome. Yes old policies have an effect here, yes new policies will help in the future, but it's not clear what action the host article is trying to accomplish.

dmitri1981 4y ago

> I'm not really sure though that energy prices can be controlled by govts. They cannot set the price, but they can set the market mechanism which produces the prices. The auction mechanism used in UK and the order in which producers with higher CO2 output get switched off first means that electricity price is set by gas powered electricity producers. Govt can and is looking at updating that auction mechanism to decouple electricity prices from gas prices. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1098100/review-electricity-market-arrangements.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

sofixa 4y ago

> I'm not really sure though that energy prices can be controlled by govts. It can. France has set up an electricity price cap, which EDF has bled billions to maintain (compared to the market price) resulting in it's renationalisation. The cap will remain in the foreseeable future. > a) Foster the use of less energy overall, better house insulation, electric cars etc and b) grow home-produced energy (wind etc.) if those reduce dependancies on oil and gas then that's likely a nice byproduct. None of these can be in place in sufficient quantity for this winter, and all have been in progress for years now, depending on the European country. (Stuff like massive tax credits and/or subsidies to insulate/buy an EV/switch to less energy intensive heating/etc.)

Normille 4y ago

>the comparison with the Poll Tax is somewhat irrelevant because the poll tax was 100% dreamed up by the govt... So was the decision to fight an economic war against Europe's major energy supplier >Energy is however a commodity, and prices are set internationally either by private companies, or other govts... What's not been mentioned in the other comments is that, in addition to the 30% price hikes on the actual cost of the electricity/gas we use at home, there has also been a similar price hike on the Standing Charge, which is the daily fee you pay, just for having your home connected to the grid. You continue to pay this even if you don't use any electricity or gas whatsoever. I think this was the straw that broke the camel's back for many people. When the energy companies took advantage of the raising of the energy price cap to hike the costs of the actual energy they supply by 30% that was bad enough. But the fact they also took the opportunity to slap a similar increase on the Standing Charge was despicable.

danaris 4y ago
> So was the decision to fight an economic war against Europe's major energy supplier No, that was Russia's choice. They chose to invade Ukraine with the full and inexcusable intent of occupying territory. Opposing this is not that different from opposing the occupation of Poland nearly a century ago, and boohooing about how it hurts the economy is just so transparently self-serving at the expense of the Ukrainian people and everyone else in former Soviet bloc countries, it makes my teeth hurt. What was the UK government's choice was being party to the entrenchment of Russia as Europe's major energy supplier over the course of the past decade or so. That was a very bad idea, but unfortunately, there's not much we can do about it in the short term now.
- Normille 4y ago
  >No, that was Russia's choice. They chose to invade Ukraine with the full and inexcusable intent of occupying territory... And what has that got to do with our energy supplies? Did we thumb our noses at Saudi Arabia and stop buying their oil,when they started bombing the shit out of Yemen? Have we sanctioned the US --ever!-- for any of the 88 and counting countries they've attacked since the end of the second world war? What's so special about Ukraine that we have to throw our own people under the bus because Ukraine hid behind the US's skirts poking the bear next door with a stick and are now suffering the consequences? >What was the UK government's choice was being party to the entrenchment of Russia as Europe's major energy supplier over the course of the past decade or so. That was a very bad idea No. That was a very good idea. What was a very bad idea was continuing to treat Russia as a leper state, even after the break-up of the Soviet Union and the [relatively!] bloodless 'liberation' of Eastern Europe. Is anyone surprised that Russia has realised "Fuck it. whatever we do, we're still the bad guys here!" and decided they might as well act accordingly. But don't fret. I'm sure the good ol' US of A will be delighted to make up the energy shortfall by selling us as much oil & gas as we can send them wheelbarrows full of cash for, in the future. The fact that it's environmentally insane to ship oil & gas all the way across the Atlantic Ocean, when we could have it cleanly flowing through pipelines from our next-door neighbour is a minor detail.

rich_sasha 4y ago

What I'd like to see is progressive energy cost (or rebate or sth). Have low cost for an amount per person that is sufficient to jest your average house to, dunno, 15 deg C and cook 1 hot meal per day. Have ~market price for the rest. Neither are you, then, forcing people into living in cold damp mouldy houses, nor are you subsidizing people's gas heated jacuzzis again market forces.