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The same Epik that turned down 8chan? https://www.epik.com/blog/epik-draws-line-on-acceptable-use.html https://www.epik.com/blog/epik-draws-line-on-acceptable-u

by chomp 4y ago

The same Epik that turned down 8chan? https://www.epik.com/blog/epik-draws-line-on-acceptable-use.html https://www.epik.com/blog/epik-draws-line-on-acceptable-use.... At the end of the day, businesses gotta eat. They're not a charity or a benevolent public force. If your user generated content impacts their bottom line, you're gonna get kicked to the curb. >The endgame for all of these so-called 'abusive platforms' is retreating to I2P/Tor, or another internet-adjacent network I'm pretty positive Cloudflare and IA do not care about a moral crusade to stop Kiwifarms, and would not care if they went to Tor. Both CDNs are primarily concerned about business risk with hosting content and calls to action that could be found illegal.

smoldesu 4y ago
> The same Epik that turned down 8chan? Epik hosted 8chan in the interim after Cloudflare dropped them. This cause Epik's hosting provider to drop them, and since Epik doesn't own their datacenters they had to abide by their hardware provider's decision: https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/5/20754943/8chan-epik-offline-voxility-service-cutoff-hate-speech-ban https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/5/20754943/8chan-epik-offlin... I'll still eat some crow, though; I forgot the entire business was owned by Rob Monster (a veritable idiot by most definitions of the word), and I completely forgot that they even provided hosting in the first place. > I'm pretty positive Cloudflare and IA do not care about a moral crusade to stop Kiwifarms, and would not care if they went to Tor. I'm certain they don't. That's the problem, though; this moral panic response to KiwiFarms has achieved nothing. Cloudflare knows that this is a zero-sum game, but they bent anyways. As businesses, their choices make plenty of sense. I disagree with businesses all the time though (check the comment history), and frankly I think Cloudflare made the wrong decision here. In my opinion, their actions here will be more destructive to queer populations in the long-run.
- mmastrac 4y ago
  How did it achieve nothing? Deplatforming has shown to be effective. The Nazi site that CF shut down is very difficult to access.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    It doesn't stop Nazis from existing though (or even knowing about, visiting and supporting the site). If we do the same thing with KiwiFarms, we just make it harder to monitor and easier for serial-abusers to collaborate. The majority of KiwiFarms users simply aren't solely enabled by the website existing, either. I simply don't believe in deplatforming, and it disappoints me to see Cloudflare shrug and cave in.
    - BeefWellington 4y ago
      > It doesn't stop Nazis from existing though (or even knowing about, visiting and supporting the site). This approach is making perfect the enemy of good. There is no perfect way to solve this problem. > If we do the same thing with KiwiFarms, we just make it harder to monitor and easier for serial-abusers to collaborate. It's still a website, it's still accessible. That part hasn't gone away. If the contention is that launching TOR somehow means it's "harder to monitor" then I have some news for you: Lots of monitoring of darkweb stuff goes on every day.
    - polio 4y ago
      Deplatforming is analogous to quarantining a person with an infectious disease. It works. The FBI can still monitor whatever's left of KF on Tor or Discord.
      - vintermann 4y ago
        If you think of beliefs as infectious diseases, you're not respecting the autonomy of other people. If I need to be prevented from knowing what the monsters say in order to avoid turning into a monster myself, then I promise you, we've lost. The monsters are going to eat us all.
        mmastrac 4y ago
        You've got plenty of autonomy left to visit them in whatever darkweb hellhole they decide to exist in and learn what the monsters are saying. We don't need to allow places in the public square for these people. Tolerance for ideas is not a suicide pact.

by chomp 4y ago

smoldesu 4y ago

> The same Epik that turned down 8chan? Epik hosted 8chan in the interim after Cloudflare dropped them. This cause Epik's hosting provider to drop them, and since Epik doesn't own their datacenters they had to abide by their hardware provider's decision: https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/5/20754943/8chan-epik-offline-voxility-service-cutoff-hate-speech-ban https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/5/20754943/8chan-epik-offlin... I'll still eat some crow, though; I forgot the entire business was owned by Rob Monster (a veritable idiot by most definitions of the word), and I completely forgot that they even provided hosting in the first place. > I'm pretty positive Cloudflare and IA do not care about a moral crusade to stop Kiwifarms, and would not care if they went to Tor. I'm certain they don't. That's the problem, though; this moral panic response to KiwiFarms has achieved nothing. Cloudflare knows that this is a zero-sum game, but they bent anyways. As businesses, their choices make plenty of sense. I disagree with businesses all the time though (check the comment history), and frankly I think Cloudflare made the wrong decision here. In my opinion, their actions here will be more destructive to queer populations in the long-run.

mmastrac 4y ago
How did it achieve nothing? Deplatforming has shown to be effective. The Nazi site that CF shut down is very difficult to access.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  It doesn't stop Nazis from existing though (or even knowing about, visiting and supporting the site). If we do the same thing with KiwiFarms, we just make it harder to monitor and easier for serial-abusers to collaborate. The majority of KiwiFarms users simply aren't solely enabled by the website existing, either. I simply don't believe in deplatforming, and it disappoints me to see Cloudflare shrug and cave in.
  - BeefWellington 4y ago
    > It doesn't stop Nazis from existing though (or even knowing about, visiting and supporting the site). This approach is making perfect the enemy of good. There is no perfect way to solve this problem. > If we do the same thing with KiwiFarms, we just make it harder to monitor and easier for serial-abusers to collaborate. It's still a website, it's still accessible. That part hasn't gone away. If the contention is that launching TOR somehow means it's "harder to monitor" then I have some news for you: Lots of monitoring of darkweb stuff goes on every day.
  - polio 4y ago
    Deplatforming is analogous to quarantining a person with an infectious disease. It works. The FBI can still monitor whatever's left of KF on Tor or Discord.
    - vintermann 4y ago
      If you think of beliefs as infectious diseases, you're not respecting the autonomy of other people. If I need to be prevented from knowing what the monsters say in order to avoid turning into a monster myself, then I promise you, we've lost. The monsters are going to eat us all.
      - mmastrac 4y ago
        You've got plenty of autonomy left to visit them in whatever darkweb hellhole they decide to exist in and learn what the monsters are saying. We don't need to allow places in the public square for these people. Tolerance for ideas is not a suicide pact.