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> Healthcare is such a base layer of the economy Academically this sounds enlightening, but it only takes one cursory walk around a supermarket in the US to se

> Healthcare is such a base layer of the economy Academically this sounds enlightening, but it only takes one cursory walk around a supermarket in the US to see this is unequivocally false. Healthcare is an externality, not a base of anything. From the average customer to the product in the aisle to the marketing - everything is 100% not a direct cost benefit function in terms of healthcare.

rgrieselhuber 4y ago
And add on top the oft-repeated that “health insurance is healthcare.” That’s how you obfuscate a whole of things.
skybrian 4y ago
I'm not sure what that proves, given that you went to a grocery store instead of a pharmacy.
- QuarterReptile 4y ago
  I'm guessing parent was saying that most medical spending is payback for terrible US American eating habits?
  - Forgeties79 4y ago
    I hope his view isn’t so myopic/“boot straps” but I guess it’s possible.
    - anonymouse008 4y ago
      Thanks for the benefit of doubt, 'hoo!
refurb 4y ago
After you criticized the comment as only “sounding enlightening” I was eager to hear your thoughts. Unfortunately I think your comment is even less enlightening. I mean, not all healthcare problems are caused by lifestyle. So clearly healthcare is a base layer - there is no situation where it wouldn’t exist.
- anonymouse008 4y ago
  I'll concede that the comment was vague and relied too heavily on a shared intuition. Though I will admit, the reward became well played dry comedy throughout your sibling comments. So I'll break down my reasoning a bit. It requires a full blog post to get out, so please forgive the abridged version. Healthcare is a catch all for all the other problems of society. The top costly conditions in the US are (in order of this barely sourced article): Mental Disorders, Heart Conditions, Trauma-Related Injuries, Diabetes, Cancer, COPD and Asthma. Every single one of these is plainly racking up unneeded costs by the daily actions of all of us. My quip on the supermarket was a remark on the total view of health (from mental to reproductive care to basic carcinogens to ...). How many people are mindlessly scrolling on Instagram while performing another task, how many people smell of cigarettes, the marketing of 'sinful goods' (depending on the state), the near impossibility to avoid added sugar in every packaged foodstuff, the number of 'alcohol noses' you can see down a 50ft isle, the parenting of children, the smell of fossil fuel exhaust from the parking lot, the gait of the elderly, injured, or soon-to-be, the accommodations (or lack thereof) for those in wheelchairs and with living assistance, and still the primary food at checkout - And to include everyone in the conversation: think of the anyone working two jobs and has 0 time to prepare fresh food for themselves or anyone else, the eventual cost is in the habitual behaviors made in the constraints of under-compensated labor.... I could keep going and I've left out other observations contributing to other conditions but I think you understand. The thing I'm trying to say is that there are interventions all over the place - however, the up-front costs (ignoring all else) of a 'double blind randomized trial' for every single one of them to earn the proper authority to define its relative utility to cost is unrealistic at the moment (also most governments do not allow for risk based price of care) - an economic externality. Couple this externality behavior with a market of near perfect inelasticity for good health (and before someone comments, yes, suicide / assisted euthanasia may not be inelastic in price on this metric) - and you can't say "Healthcare is such a base layer of the economy" - an alternative analysis is "Healthcare is an externality that is priced in a government controlled market" [Edit] I completely left out the externality of the high reward litigation industry on malpractice and all of the above conditions as evidence of harm - adding pressure on compensation to the highest paid professionals.
  - 4y ago
ericmay 4y ago
Walk around the supermarket that you drive to, hopefully not being maimed or maiming someone else on the way. A ludicrous expenditure of energy to avoid physical activity so that you can buy products to help alleviate the symptoms of the energy expenditure and laziness. Can’t walk, or bike, or take the non-existent public transit. That’s for sure.
- jjeaff 4y ago
  I don't think driving is merely to avoid physical expenditure. Driving is a result of rural and suburban living as well as poor urban planning. Lots more people would walk or bike if it was reasonably feasible.
  - trashtester 4y ago
    I suspect it's a bit of a chicken/egg problem (based on my opservations from visiting the US). Even in suburban areas there seems to be roads everywhere, often very hard to cross without a car. Where I live in Europe, the expectation is that the kids will walk or take the bike to school. 95% of the paths they need to travel is covered by walkways (usually separated from the roads, and in many cases with dedicated bike lanes). Everywhere the kids need to cross, there are crosswalks, and every morning before school a team of parents is organized to safeguard these crosswalks. Meanwhile, driving is slowed down significantly by the efforts above. The roads are underfunded and lines tend to form around the school (some parents still do drive their kids, up to about half when the weather is really bad). But with parents blocking the crosswalk every time a kid is near, bottlenecks do form. Basically, if you're in a car, you're treated as a 2nd rate citizen. :) Oh, and I suppose one benefit of all this walking is that hospital bills go down. Mostly because of the exercise, but also to some extent due reduction in air polution (which is helped further by most of the remaining cars being electric, most of which, ironically, are of a certain American brand).
    - JosephGuerra 4y ago
      Where i live in the suburbs we don't even have sidewalks ffs. I live about 3 blocks from my kids' school, yet they are driven or take the bus to school because kids are not allowed to bike or walk to elementary or middle school, unfortunately. wow, didn't realize so much of EU can afford electric vehicles. They are more expensive over here in the U.S. - especially compared to a decent used car. Is this a function of the cost of fuel being much higher over there? Or are there subsidies for purchasing electric or something else?

rgrieselhuber 4y ago

And add on top the oft-repeated that “health insurance is healthcare.” That’s how you obfuscate a whole of things.

skybrian 4y ago

I'm not sure what that proves, given that you went to a grocery store instead of a pharmacy.

QuarterReptile 4y ago
I'm guessing parent was saying that most medical spending is payback for terrible US American eating habits?
- Forgeties79 4y ago
  I hope his view isn’t so myopic/“boot straps” but I guess it’s possible.
  - anonymouse008 4y ago
    Thanks for the benefit of doubt, 'hoo!

refurb 4y ago

After you criticized the comment as only “sounding enlightening” I was eager to hear your thoughts. Unfortunately I think your comment is even less enlightening. I mean, not all healthcare problems are caused by lifestyle. So clearly healthcare is a base layer - there is no situation where it wouldn’t exist.

anonymouse008 4y ago
I'll concede that the comment was vague and relied too heavily on a shared intuition. Though I will admit, the reward became well played dry comedy throughout your sibling comments. So I'll break down my reasoning a bit. It requires a full blog post to get out, so please forgive the abridged version. Healthcare is a catch all for all the other problems of society. The top costly conditions in the US are (in order of this barely sourced article): Mental Disorders, Heart Conditions, Trauma-Related Injuries, Diabetes, Cancer, COPD and Asthma. Every single one of these is plainly racking up unneeded costs by the daily actions of all of us. My quip on the supermarket was a remark on the total view of health (from mental to reproductive care to basic carcinogens to ...). How many people are mindlessly scrolling on Instagram while performing another task, how many people smell of cigarettes, the marketing of 'sinful goods' (depending on the state), the near impossibility to avoid added sugar in every packaged foodstuff, the number of 'alcohol noses' you can see down a 50ft isle, the parenting of children, the smell of fossil fuel exhaust from the parking lot, the gait of the elderly, injured, or soon-to-be, the accommodations (or lack thereof) for those in wheelchairs and with living assistance, and still the primary food at checkout - And to include everyone in the conversation: think of the anyone working two jobs and has 0 time to prepare fresh food for themselves or anyone else, the eventual cost is in the habitual behaviors made in the constraints of under-compensated labor.... I could keep going and I've left out other observations contributing to other conditions but I think you understand. The thing I'm trying to say is that there are interventions all over the place - however, the up-front costs (ignoring all else) of a 'double blind randomized trial' for every single one of them to earn the proper authority to define its relative utility to cost is unrealistic at the moment (also most governments do not allow for risk based price of care) - an economic externality. Couple this externality behavior with a market of near perfect inelasticity for good health (and before someone comments, yes, suicide / assisted euthanasia may not be inelastic in price on this metric) - and you can't say "Healthcare is such a base layer of the economy" - an alternative analysis is "Healthcare is an externality that is priced in a government controlled market" [Edit] I completely left out the externality of the high reward litigation industry on malpractice and all of the above conditions as evidence of harm - adding pressure on compensation to the highest paid professionals.
- 4y ago

ericmay 4y ago

Walk around the supermarket that you drive to, hopefully not being maimed or maiming someone else on the way. A ludicrous expenditure of energy to avoid physical activity so that you can buy products to help alleviate the symptoms of the energy expenditure and laziness. Can’t walk, or bike, or take the non-existent public transit. That’s for sure.

jjeaff 4y ago
I don't think driving is merely to avoid physical expenditure. Driving is a result of rural and suburban living as well as poor urban planning. Lots more people would walk or bike if it was reasonably feasible.
- trashtester 4y ago
  I suspect it's a bit of a chicken/egg problem (based on my opservations from visiting the US). Even in suburban areas there seems to be roads everywhere, often very hard to cross without a car. Where I live in Europe, the expectation is that the kids will walk or take the bike to school. 95% of the paths they need to travel is covered by walkways (usually separated from the roads, and in many cases with dedicated bike lanes). Everywhere the kids need to cross, there are crosswalks, and every morning before school a team of parents is organized to safeguard these crosswalks. Meanwhile, driving is slowed down significantly by the efforts above. The roads are underfunded and lines tend to form around the school (some parents still do drive their kids, up to about half when the weather is really bad). But with parents blocking the crosswalk every time a kid is near, bottlenecks do form. Basically, if you're in a car, you're treated as a 2nd rate citizen. :) Oh, and I suppose one benefit of all this walking is that hospital bills go down. Mostly because of the exercise, but also to some extent due reduction in air polution (which is helped further by most of the remaining cars being electric, most of which, ironically, are of a certain American brand).
  - JosephGuerra 4y ago
    Where i live in the suburbs we don't even have sidewalks ffs. I live about 3 blocks from my kids' school, yet they are driven or take the bus to school because kids are not allowed to bike or walk to elementary or middle school, unfortunately. wow, didn't realize so much of EU can afford electric vehicles. They are more expensive over here in the U.S. - especially compared to a decent used car. Is this a function of the cost of fuel being much higher over there? Or are there subsidies for purchasing electric or something else?