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“Blah blah… fOrCeD …blah blah” There was no compulsion involved in Russia invading their neighbors.

by mechanical_bear 4y ago

danbruc 4y ago
How should Russia have prevented Ukraine from joining NATO alternatively?
- mechanical_bear 4y ago
  Why should Russia have prevented a sovereign nation from doing anything? Is Ukraine not a sovereign nation? Should the US prevent Mexico from joining into a membership scheme with other nations?
  - danbruc 4y ago
    Look at the US reaction towards the Solomon Islands [1] earlier this year. And we are not talking about memberships in random international organizations, we are talking about placing military assets close to rival borders. Do you think the USA would tolerate Chinese bases, tanks and airplanes in northern Mexico? What happened when Cuba asked for Soviet ICBMs as deterent against the USA trying to overthrow their government? Sovereignty does not mean you can do whatever you want. Why do the USA and Israel try to prevent Iran from building nuclear weapons, are they not a sovereign state? Why invade Afghanistan, is hosting terrorists not something sovereign state can do if they want? You can of course maintain that sovereignty grants you the right to do whatever you want inside your territory, but then you also have to admit that not only the evil Russians are violating rights left and right.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  How about by making Ukraine not feel threatened by Russia, so that it didn't feel that it needed to join NATO for its own protection?
  - danbruc 4y ago
    Which threat do you have in mind in particular?
    - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
      I don't have one in particular in mind. I have in mind a whole pattern, going back at least as far as the invasion of Georgia in (IIRC) 2008. That said - in actions, not just words - that Russia feels free to invade neighbors if it doesn't like their policies. Then came Russia's statements at the time of the color revolution. (No, I don't recall specific statements - that was eight or nine years ago.) Then came the invasion of the "little green men". Russia said it was an internal thing, that Russia was not involved. Ukraine knows better. Was that not enough for Ukraine, as early as 2013, to be looking for alliances to help their defense? But for every move they made, Russia felt threatened by NATO. And so Russia responded by threatening Ukraine even more (mostly verbally, until 2022). But the bigger the threats that Russia uttered, the more Ukraine sought to strengthen ties to the west. This was now a positive feedback loop. It doesn't matter if one side was "right", it doesn't matter who made the first move, Russia's reactions were driving Ukraine more firmly into the camp of the west. Since the invasion, Russia's comments have been jaw-dropping. "Ukraine has no independent existence." They threatened Finland for joining NATO. (Why do they think Finland might see the need to join NATO, after decades of non-alignment?) They threatened Poland for being a transit point for weapons flowing into Ukraine. They talked about re-creating the USSR or the Russian Empire or some big thing from the past that had a bigger land footprint. They talked about already being at war with NATO. Do they think that people don't listen to this? That they don't react? That the reaction is going to be to bow down to Russia's diktat? People (not just Ukraine) are scrambling, either toward Russia or away. Belarus is scrambling toward (Russia having kept Lukashenka in power might have something to do with that). Uzbekistan and maybe Kazakhstan are moving toward Russia. Everyone else is scrambling away, trying to find allies big enough to deter Russia from attacking them. (Now, in fairness, since the invasion Russia has been running wartime propaganda, so of course their rhetoric has hardened. That doesn't convince their neighbors that Russia wants to live with them in peace, though.) So, yeah. It's not just one threat. It's the whole pattern of Russia's words and actions over the last decade or two.

“Blah blah… fOrCeD …blah blah” There was no compulsion involved in Russia invading their neighbors.

danbruc 4y ago

How should Russia have prevented Ukraine from joining NATO alternatively?

mechanical_bear 4y ago
Why should Russia have prevented a sovereign nation from doing anything? Is Ukraine not a sovereign nation? Should the US prevent Mexico from joining into a membership scheme with other nations?
- danbruc 4y ago
  Look at the US reaction towards the Solomon Islands [1] earlier this year. And we are not talking about memberships in random international organizations, we are talking about placing military assets close to rival borders. Do you think the USA would tolerate Chinese bases, tanks and airplanes in northern Mexico? What happened when Cuba asked for Soviet ICBMs as deterent against the USA trying to overthrow their government? Sovereignty does not mean you can do whatever you want. Why do the USA and Israel try to prevent Iran from building nuclear weapons, are they not a sovereign state? Why invade Afghanistan, is hosting terrorists not something sovereign state can do if they want? You can of course maintain that sovereignty grants you the right to do whatever you want inside your territory, but then you also have to admit that not only the evil Russians are violating rights left and right.
AnimalMuppet 4y ago
How about by making Ukraine not feel threatened by Russia, so that it didn't feel that it needed to join NATO for its own protection?
- danbruc 4y ago
  Which threat do you have in mind in particular?
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    I don't have one in particular in mind. I have in mind a whole pattern, going back at least as far as the invasion of Georgia in (IIRC) 2008. That said - in actions, not just words - that Russia feels free to invade neighbors if it doesn't like their policies. Then came Russia's statements at the time of the color revolution. (No, I don't recall specific statements - that was eight or nine years ago.) Then came the invasion of the "little green men". Russia said it was an internal thing, that Russia was not involved. Ukraine knows better. Was that not enough for Ukraine, as early as 2013, to be looking for alliances to help their defense? But for every move they made, Russia felt threatened by NATO. And so Russia responded by threatening Ukraine even more (mostly verbally, until 2022). But the bigger the threats that Russia uttered, the more Ukraine sought to strengthen ties to the west. This was now a positive feedback loop. It doesn't matter if one side was "right", it doesn't matter who made the first move, Russia's reactions were driving Ukraine more firmly into the camp of the west. Since the invasion, Russia's comments have been jaw-dropping. "Ukraine has no independent existence." They threatened Finland for joining NATO. (Why do they think Finland might see the need to join NATO, after decades of non-alignment?) They threatened Poland for being a transit point for weapons flowing into Ukraine. They talked about re-creating the USSR or the Russian Empire or some big thing from the past that had a bigger land footprint. They talked about already being at war with NATO. Do they think that people don't listen to this? That they don't react? That the reaction is going to be to bow down to Russia's diktat? People (not just Ukraine) are scrambling, either toward Russia or away. Belarus is scrambling toward (Russia having kept Lukashenka in power might have something to do with that). Uzbekistan and maybe Kazakhstan are moving toward Russia. Everyone else is scrambling away, trying to find allies big enough to deter Russia from attacking them. (Now, in fairness, since the invasion Russia has been running wartime propaganda, so of course their rhetoric has hardened. That doesn't convince their neighbors that Russia wants to live with them in peace, though.) So, yeah. It's not just one threat. It's the whole pattern of Russia's words and actions over the last decade or two.