4 ms·

Unfortunately you are making this up. Whatabout-ism, while relevant for improving the regulatory body's process, does not affect the merits of an individual ca

Unfortunately you are making this up. Whatabout-ism, while relevant for improving the regulatory body's process, does not affect the merits of an individual case. It's akin to complaining at a traffic stop: "but you didn't ticket the guy in front of me!" I am a professional engineer who is involved in licensing in my own jurisdiction: license payment is a requirement for saying you have a license. A license is required to refer to yourself as a professional engineer. Full stop. On what basis are you suggesting otherwise?

JoeAltmaier 4y ago
That's silly. When a regulatory body lets some folks pass on renewal for decades, then hits up one guy with a big fine for being late 2 months what do you call it if not abuse of power? Sure its technically within their rights to fine folks - its right there in their charter. But the fact that they don't exercise this right for years then pick out this guy shows that something is up. Further, the licensing has f-all to do with whether a particular engineer is endangering public safety. That entirely depends on their training. The certification doesn't come first - it's simply a label so folks can tell who's competent. This guy had the certification for years; he has it now. There was no issue with public safety. Which is indeed reflected on the lax enforcement of renewal - normally just a late fee, which just makes sense.
- ulrashida 4y ago
  "Further, the licensing has f-all to do with whether a particular engineer is endangering public safety." This is completely contrary to what every engineer is taught multiple times before they are licensed. Licensing is essential to the goal of preserving public safety as the profession is self-regulating. This lesson was learned at the cost of human life and I'm not sure what has given the impression that it's some administrative convenience. Inescapably, in applying for a license you confirm that you understand the role of the licensing body and the rules the license is granted under. Marohn got fined because someone registered a complaint that he "held himself out as a professional engineer while he was not licensed" and "falsely represented on his reapplication for licensure that he had not done so". Quite plainly, this isn't some injustice: this is literally the system working as intended -- complaint, assessment, and resolution. As to your point that "they don't exercise this right for years" you are incorrect: about a dozen fines have been assigned in 2022 alone. Do you have experience with professional licensing that suggests the above is inappropriate?
  - JoeAltmaier 4y ago
    This is hopeless. The point I've made repeatedly is, the education is what makes an engineer competent. Not the state of their license. The guy is clearly what was said: not licenced (briefly). He corrected that; they even charged a late fee recognizing he was still licensed but late in paying. The article lists several egregious cases that did not result in a fine. Are those dozen fines in 2022 about people who's fees lapsed? If not, then we're right back where we started: this guy is getting an unreasonable fine for a paperwork issue. Not for endangering the public. Which is the only point I'm making despite the army of strawmen being marshalled.
    - ulrashida 4y ago
      "This is hopeless." On this, we agree. You appear to be basing your understanding on the reason.com article and have not read the actual underlying proceedings. He was fined because he lied on his renewal application. There are likely very few examples of this exact issue because most professionals don't behave in this fashion. Seeing as how the article leaves out this salient point, it's fairly clear that the article is not an unbiased source. As for the "strawmen" comment: you're getting direct, personal feedback from someone who does this for a living and has been for over 15 years. My opinion is that my association would have done the same thing, if not more, and would have been correct in doing so. The court involved in this case agrees. If you choose to hand wave it away because it's inconsistent with whatever deeper meaning you have read into, you do you.

JoeAltmaier 4y ago

That's silly. When a regulatory body lets some folks pass on renewal for decades, then hits up one guy with a big fine for being late 2 months what do you call it if not abuse of power? Sure its technically within their rights to fine folks - its right there in their charter. But the fact that they don't exercise this right for years then pick out this guy shows that something is up. Further, the licensing has f-all to do with whether a particular engineer is endangering public safety. That entirely depends on their training. The certification doesn't come first - it's simply a label so folks can tell who's competent. This guy had the certification for years; he has it now. There was no issue with public safety. Which is indeed reflected on the lax enforcement of renewal - normally just a late fee, which just makes sense.

ulrashida 4y ago
"Further, the licensing has f-all to do with whether a particular engineer is endangering public safety." This is completely contrary to what every engineer is taught multiple times before they are licensed. Licensing is essential to the goal of preserving public safety as the profession is self-regulating. This lesson was learned at the cost of human life and I'm not sure what has given the impression that it's some administrative convenience. Inescapably, in applying for a license you confirm that you understand the role of the licensing body and the rules the license is granted under. Marohn got fined because someone registered a complaint that he "held himself out as a professional engineer while he was not licensed" and "falsely represented on his reapplication for licensure that he had not done so". Quite plainly, this isn't some injustice: this is literally the system working as intended -- complaint, assessment, and resolution. As to your point that "they don't exercise this right for years" you are incorrect: about a dozen fines have been assigned in 2022 alone. Do you have experience with professional licensing that suggests the above is inappropriate?
- JoeAltmaier 4y ago
  This is hopeless. The point I've made repeatedly is, the education is what makes an engineer competent. Not the state of their license. The guy is clearly what was said: not licenced (briefly). He corrected that; they even charged a late fee recognizing he was still licensed but late in paying. The article lists several egregious cases that did not result in a fine. Are those dozen fines in 2022 about people who's fees lapsed? If not, then we're right back where we started: this guy is getting an unreasonable fine for a paperwork issue. Not for endangering the public. Which is the only point I'm making despite the army of strawmen being marshalled.
  - ulrashida 4y ago
    "This is hopeless." On this, we agree. You appear to be basing your understanding on the reason.com article and have not read the actual underlying proceedings. He was fined because he lied on his renewal application. There are likely very few examples of this exact issue because most professionals don't behave in this fashion. Seeing as how the article leaves out this salient point, it's fairly clear that the article is not an unbiased source. As for the "strawmen" comment: you're getting direct, personal feedback from someone who does this for a living and has been for over 15 years. My opinion is that my association would have done the same thing, if not more, and would have been correct in doing so. The court involved in this case agrees. If you choose to hand wave it away because it's inconsistent with whatever deeper meaning you have read into, you do you.