8 ms·

> Crime is rampant According to the data, crime in SF is lower that it was a few years ago: https://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-San-Francisco-California.html

> Crime is rampant According to the data, crime in SF is lower that it was a few years ago: https://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-San-Francisco-California.html https://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-San-Francisco-Californ... > Drug use and filth is everywhere. Voters can’t seem to wrap their head around better housing policies to get people off the street. It’s disappointing, the entire Bay Area is guilty of this.

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
Crime is down - but so is population. Is the decrease statistically significant after adjusting for population loss?
- hattmall 4y ago
  Violent Crime IS low in SF. It's pushed into Oakland. Property crime is insane and artificially held low by apathy with regard to reporting and redefining offense levels.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
    Also wondering how much this has to do with Shoplifting and other crimes simply being decriminalized.
    - inferiorhuman 4y ago
      Shoplifting and other crimes simply being decriminalized. Shoplifting was never (formally) decriminalized. SFPD stopped bringing anything to the DA because he was investigating and prosecuting police misconduct. Now that the mayor's installed a new DA and the new DA's disbanded the group that investigates police misconduct the police have started bringing more cases forward. Unsurprisingly the new DA is not prosecuting cases at a higher rate. https://missionlocal.org/2022/08/jenkins-removed-prosecutor-police-misconduct-homicide-trial/ https://missionlocal.org/2022/08/jenkins-removed-prosecutor-... https://missionlocal.org/2022/08/narcotics-enforcement-spike-not-jenkins-prosecutions/ https://missionlocal.org/2022/08/narcotics-enforcement-spike... https://missionlocal.org/2022/07/mayors-office-takes-hands-on-role-with-da-jenkins-documents-show/ https://missionlocal.org/2022/07/mayors-office-takes-hands-o...
RobertRoberts 4y ago
I have never met a homeless person that wanted to get work, have a steady income and pay for housing that didn't eventually make it. (I lived on the streets) Those that were overcome by drugs and mental issues would either destroy the housing or simply leave it or never take free housing. (yes, there are many homeless that actually do _not_ want an apartment/house to take care of)
rgrieselhuber 4y ago
Regarding crime, that data only goes to 2019. I'd be shocked if things are not much worse now.
andreilys 4y ago
Anecdotally a lot of friends in SF don’t bother reporting crimes because they know the police won’t do anything and it’ll be just a waste of their time reporting it.
- bluedino 4y ago
  Or if you call the police, they just never show up, or when they do, tell you not even bother filing a report. Citizen: Someone stole my backpack and laptop out of my car! Police: And?
  - mbfg 4y ago
    Ok, imagine for me the society for which you can file a police report for a stolen backpack, and you relatively efficiently have your backpack returned, and the perpetrator brought to justice. What does that society look like? How does that happen?
    - anonAndOn 4y ago
      Unbelievably, I had a stolen bike returned to me two years later by the sheriff, so it is possible if the item is registered and reported as stolen. No perp justice, but getting the bike back was a pleasant surprise.
    - DeWilde 4y ago
      This is my experience even in some of the poorer parts of Europe. You describe stolen items or provide photos of them and the police usually have a rough idea of who might have stolen it or have recently arrested someone in possession of your items.
    - cryptonector 4y ago
      That you won't get it back doesn't mean that it's not useful to count the crime. It won't get counted if not reported.
      - mbfg 4y ago
pesfandiar 4y ago
I wouldn't be so sure about the official stats. We've had a similar phenomenon in Vancouver, where perceived crime has been going up in downtown core, especially during the lockdowns. However, people have given up on calling the police for property crimes and random attacks on residents. This has led to lower crime stats.
buscoquadnary 4y ago
> According to the data, crime in SF is lower that it was a few years ago: https://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-San-Francisco-Californ https://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-San-Francisco-Californ... Every time I see something like this I will point out that during the anti-police movement that happened a while back, many police started reducing their activity either because they were told to, because prosecutes would refuse to prosecute, or because they didn't want to be the next person on the news. Many people in the LE community that I knew reduced the proactive policing, because of the hostile nature of it. Every single one of them predicted that crimes would stop being reported and recorded, and that a year from now everyone was going to point to the fact crime has gone down as proof that things are getting better, when the reality was that people were going to stop using or relying on the police for help because they police wouldn't do anything because they had been instructed not to. Crime isn't any lower, reported crime is.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  This theory falls down when you look at murders. They're down with all the others on that link, and they're highly unlikely to go unreported.
  - steve76 4y ago
  - happyopossum 4y ago
    for 3 year old data, yes - but they are up 30% over that in 2021 [1] https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/crime-dashboard https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/crim...
  - buscoquadnary 4y ago
    Looking at that link murders are down from 34 to 33, not exactly stunning success. Especially if a murder is ruled something else.
    - 4y ago
jjulius 4y ago
Crime can be down but still remain rampant. Your own link says that crime in SF is "higher than in 94.1% of US cities".
RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
> According to the data, crime in SF is lower that it was a few years ago: I think the data on the page you linked to only goes through 2019. In addition, anecdotally, there is a decent amount of property crime that is not being reported because it is felt is is not worth the effort as the police are not able to do anything about it.
PKop 4y ago
This delusion that if only we build houses, the homeless, mentally ill and drug addicted will magically disappear from the streets...is based on what exactly? What does "housing policy" mean in the context of streets lined with tent cities filled with drug addicts?
- mbfg 4y ago
  surely you are not arguing it won't go down at all, right? So the question really is, what amount of homelessness will disappear. It may be that it is not cost effective. That is a reasonable possibility, i suppose. I think tho, it is a difficult prediction to make, and so shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
  - PKop 4y ago
    You'll be subsidizing their drug habit, and increasing the number of homeless, mentally ill, and drug addicted people that reside in your city that taxes will have to pay for (simply to exist in the houses you gave them, and keep abusing drugs). Of course it won't be cost effective because it's not accomplishing anything except paying them to ruin whatever building you give them, which they likely won't stay in anyways. They're out there because they want to be out there doing drugs. At the very least, the drug addiction would have to be stopped, which isn't likely in any case, but certainly not by just giving them a house. There's an entire thriving economy in SF with jobs these people could be doing. What aren't they doing them? If cost of living is too expensive there, why not go to a cheaper city and do work there? If they have skills to be a white collar worker, SF is a great place to do that work and easily afford housing. Why aren't they doing it? Mental illness and drugs dominate the problem by such an order of magnitude that anything else save for harsh imprisonment to get off streets....especially subsidization of their lifestyle, will accomplish less than nothing.
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  > This delusion that if only we build houses, the homeless, mentally ill and drug addicted will magically disappear from the streets...is based on what exactly? Peer-reviewed research: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20063061/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20063061/ & https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/183666 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/183666
happyopossum 4y ago
That data is 3 years old, and only accounts for reported crime. If you look at the numbers for 2021, it doesn't look so good - and that doesn't account for all of the non-reported crime, or incidents where the cops just don't show up. [1] https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/crime-dashboard https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/crim...
ericd 4y ago
Having worked with PD crime data before (we were trying to make heat maps of crime levels across cities), I wouldn't put a lot of weight on it. High quality data collection doesn't seem to be a priority for most police departments, which is especially obvious when you compare across cities. Based on friends in SF, property crime in SF is at ridiculous levels, especially in the seedier parts like the Tenderloin. One friend started maintaining a car window replacement fund, because they lost multiple windows over the last year.

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago

Crime is down - but so is population. Is the decrease statistically significant after adjusting for population loss?

hattmall 4y ago
Violent Crime IS low in SF. It's pushed into Oakland. Property crime is insane and artificially held low by apathy with regard to reporting and redefining offense levels.
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  Also wondering how much this has to do with Shoplifting and other crimes simply being decriminalized.
  - inferiorhuman 4y ago
    Shoplifting and other crimes simply being decriminalized. Shoplifting was never (formally) decriminalized. SFPD stopped bringing anything to the DA because he was investigating and prosecuting police misconduct. Now that the mayor's installed a new DA and the new DA's disbanded the group that investigates police misconduct the police have started bringing more cases forward. Unsurprisingly the new DA is not prosecuting cases at a higher rate. https://missionlocal.org/2022/08/jenkins-removed-prosecutor-police-misconduct-homicide-trial/ https://missionlocal.org/2022/08/jenkins-removed-prosecutor-... https://missionlocal.org/2022/08/narcotics-enforcement-spike-not-jenkins-prosecutions/ https://missionlocal.org/2022/08/narcotics-enforcement-spike... https://missionlocal.org/2022/07/mayors-office-takes-hands-on-role-with-da-jenkins-documents-show/ https://missionlocal.org/2022/07/mayors-office-takes-hands-o...

RobertRoberts 4y ago

I have never met a homeless person that wanted to get work, have a steady income and pay for housing that didn't eventually make it. (I lived on the streets) Those that were overcome by drugs and mental issues would either destroy the housing or simply leave it or never take free housing. (yes, there are many homeless that actually do _not_ want an apartment/house to take care of)

rgrieselhuber 4y ago

Regarding crime, that data only goes to 2019. I'd be shocked if things are not much worse now.

andreilys 4y ago

Anecdotally a lot of friends in SF don’t bother reporting crimes because they know the police won’t do anything and it’ll be just a waste of their time reporting it.

bluedino 4y ago
Or if you call the police, they just never show up, or when they do, tell you not even bother filing a report. Citizen: Someone stole my backpack and laptop out of my car! Police: And?
- mbfg 4y ago
  Ok, imagine for me the society for which you can file a police report for a stolen backpack, and you relatively efficiently have your backpack returned, and the perpetrator brought to justice. What does that society look like? How does that happen?
  - anonAndOn 4y ago
    Unbelievably, I had a stolen bike returned to me two years later by the sheriff, so it is possible if the item is registered and reported as stolen. No perp justice, but getting the bike back was a pleasant surprise.
  - DeWilde 4y ago
    This is my experience even in some of the poorer parts of Europe. You describe stolen items or provide photos of them and the police usually have a rough idea of who might have stolen it or have recently arrested someone in possession of your items.
  - cryptonector 4y ago
    That you won't get it back doesn't mean that it's not useful to count the crime. It won't get counted if not reported.
    - mbfg 4y ago

pesfandiar 4y ago

I wouldn't be so sure about the official stats. We've had a similar phenomenon in Vancouver, where perceived crime has been going up in downtown core, especially during the lockdowns. However, people have given up on calling the police for property crimes and random attacks on residents. This has led to lower crime stats.

buscoquadnary 4y ago

> According to the data, crime in SF is lower that it was a few years ago: https://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-San-Francisco-Californ https://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-San-Francisco-Californ... Every time I see something like this I will point out that during the anti-police movement that happened a while back, many police started reducing their activity either because they were told to, because prosecutes would refuse to prosecute, or because they didn't want to be the next person on the news. Many people in the LE community that I knew reduced the proactive policing, because of the hostile nature of it. Every single one of them predicted that crimes would stop being reported and recorded, and that a year from now everyone was going to point to the fact crime has gone down as proof that things are getting better, when the reality was that people were going to stop using or relying on the police for help because they police wouldn't do anything because they had been instructed not to. Crime isn't any lower, reported crime is.

ceejayoz 4y ago
This theory falls down when you look at murders. They're down with all the others on that link, and they're highly unlikely to go unreported.
- steve76 4y ago
- happyopossum 4y ago
  for 3 year old data, yes - but they are up 30% over that in 2021 [1] https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/crime-dashboard https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/crim...
- buscoquadnary 4y ago
  Looking at that link murders are down from 34 to 33, not exactly stunning success. Especially if a murder is ruled something else.
  - 4y ago

jjulius 4y ago

Crime can be down but still remain rampant. Your own link says that crime in SF is "higher than in 94.1% of US cities".

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago

> According to the data, crime in SF is lower that it was a few years ago: I think the data on the page you linked to only goes through 2019. In addition, anecdotally, there is a decent amount of property crime that is not being reported because it is felt is is not worth the effort as the police are not able to do anything about it.

PKop 4y ago

This delusion that if only we build houses, the homeless, mentally ill and drug addicted will magically disappear from the streets...is based on what exactly? What does "housing policy" mean in the context of streets lined with tent cities filled with drug addicts?

mbfg 4y ago
surely you are not arguing it won't go down at all, right? So the question really is, what amount of homelessness will disappear. It may be that it is not cost effective. That is a reasonable possibility, i suppose. I think tho, it is a difficult prediction to make, and so shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
- PKop 4y ago
  You'll be subsidizing their drug habit, and increasing the number of homeless, mentally ill, and drug addicted people that reside in your city that taxes will have to pay for (simply to exist in the houses you gave them, and keep abusing drugs). Of course it won't be cost effective because it's not accomplishing anything except paying them to ruin whatever building you give them, which they likely won't stay in anyways. They're out there because they want to be out there doing drugs. At the very least, the drug addiction would have to be stopped, which isn't likely in any case, but certainly not by just giving them a house. There's an entire thriving economy in SF with jobs these people could be doing. What aren't they doing them? If cost of living is too expensive there, why not go to a cheaper city and do work there? If they have skills to be a white collar worker, SF is a great place to do that work and easily afford housing. Why aren't they doing it? Mental illness and drugs dominate the problem by such an order of magnitude that anything else save for harsh imprisonment to get off streets....especially subsidization of their lifestyle, will accomplish less than nothing.
AlexandrB 4y ago
> This delusion that if only we build houses, the homeless, mentally ill and drug addicted will magically disappear from the streets...is based on what exactly? Peer-reviewed research: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20063061/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20063061/ & https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/183666 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/183666

happyopossum 4y ago

That data is 3 years old, and only accounts for reported crime. If you look at the numbers for 2021, it doesn't look so good - and that doesn't account for all of the non-reported crime, or incidents where the cops just don't show up. [1] https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/crime-dashboard https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/crim...

ericd 4y ago

Having worked with PD crime data before (we were trying to make heat maps of crime levels across cities), I wouldn't put a lot of weight on it. High quality data collection doesn't seem to be a priority for most police departments, which is especially obvious when you compare across cities. Based on friends in SF, property crime in SF is at ridiculous levels, especially in the seedier parts like the Tenderloin. One friend started maintaining a car window replacement fund, because they lost multiple windows over the last year.