5 ms·

Free drugs of course, supported by the tax payer

yazaddaruvala 4y ago
I can't tell if you're being serious or not, but I feel it needs to be clarified. The reality is free drugs at safe injection sites, supported by the tax payer, is cheaper for the tax payer. Overdoses and emergency services for overdoses cost a LOT of money. "a period of 2 years and 3 months", "with a savings of over $2.3 million for the lifetime of the program"[0]. Roughly $1 MM per year for just the 1 city in this study (and the population of the city is relatively small). Additionally, there is a reduction in overall costs funded by the tax payer of rehab, help programs, etc because of benefits from colocation with the safe injection sites. Additionally, this study doesn't even include the long term savings from reduced police/boarder patrol workload. Not only do free drugs reduce the need for petty theft to fund an addiction (costing tax payer time to file insurance claims - let alone the improved safety of no more petty theft), but when drugs are free, there is no longer a profit for organized crime and smuggling. Reducing the overall tax payer burden for the city / country. [0] https://harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12954-022-00609-5 https://harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1...
- bluedino 4y ago
  It'd be even cheaper if they'd quit doing drugs.
  - yazaddaruvala 4y ago
    Great! Clearly we both agree! Because the data shows that these facilities actual lead to more people quitting these addictions. Safe injection sites are always (to my knowledge) used as the start of a funnel to educational materials about rehab. As such long term wins are even better for the tax payer than what I said above. Especially when these people rejoin the workforce.
    - TedShiller 4y ago
      It's a perfect example of Biden Logic (TM): The best way to stop addicts from using drugs is to give them even more free drugs.
      - yazaddaruvala 4y ago
        > Biden Logic(TM) /sigh why does Biden need to be involved in our conversation. For anyone who reads my comments please don’t take this as a pro or against Biden thing. Right now I’m exclusively interested in critical analysis of free drugs at safe injection sites and helping people disconfirm their biases. > The best way to stop addicts from using drugs is to give them even more free drugs. It’s definitely counter intuitive, but 30 years of data speaks for itself (please see my other posts for citations). Now that you have the data, you can choose. Chose to help everyone in society including yourself, by changing your initial assumptions because of real world data. You could even just go half way, we need more data before I’m convinced but at least with the data we do have I’ll start considering the possibility. Or you can choose to hurt people, including yourself, by holding onto your incorrect intuition. Why would you want to be this type of person? I’d love to know. I hope one day everyone chooses to first and foremost disconfirm their biases, use more data to drive decisions, and starts actually helping create the society they say they want.
        TedShiller 4y ago
        > It’s definitely counter intuitive, but 30 years of data speaks for itself (please see my other posts for citations). I agree. That's why, whenever I meet recovering alcoholics, I always send them a few cases of booze, because I know it will help them quit faster. Same with smokers. If I meet anyone trying to quit, I always leave them with a few boxes of free cigarettes. It's very counter intuitive, like you said, but the more temptation they have, the easier it is for them to quit.
        yazaddaruvala 4y ago
        Fair enough.. You’re free to believe and say whatever you believe. That said, while I truly wish you only good things in life, if you ever find yourself not happy with your previous decisions or not happy with your current life setting, I strongly recommend revisiting this comment thread and at least try to start being the type of person that first and foremost looks to disconfirm their biases. Thanks for your time.
- diebeforei485 4y ago
  Did you read the paper you cited? They don't look at all overdoses, only the overdoses that happen at these sites. It's a fairly weak paper and doesn't justify your claim. > This study only includes an analysis of known overdoses at the SCS site. Future research could also examine the rates of overdoses in the community, to achieve a broader understanding of overdose management and prevention across settings.
  - yazaddaruvala 4y ago
    > They don't look at all overdoses, only the overdoses that happen at these sites. Overdoses that happen at the sites are overdoses that don't happen on the street. More studies: - https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/system/files/publications/2734/POD_Drug%20consumption%20rooms.pdf https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/system/files/publications/2734/... - https://www.aafp.org/pubs/afp/issues/2022/0500/p454.html https://www.aafp.org/pubs/afp/issues/2022/0500/p454.html - https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2015435 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2015435 - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34218964/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34218964/ More articles: - https://psmag.com/economics/how-supervised-injection-sites-can-help-users-and-cities https://psmag.com/economics/how-supervised-injection-sites-c... - [Highly Recommended] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/09/07/645609248/whats-the-evidence-that-supervised-drug-injection-sites-save-lives https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/09/07/6456092... In fact, I can't find a single study showcasing safe injection sites as a tax payer burden, nor can I find a study showcasing increased overdoses in surrounding areas, nor can I find studies of increased crime. The only articles against, that I've found are 1. religious/moral arguments; 2. "We need more data", "studies aren't robust enough" 3. NIMBY arguments like this(https://www.heritage.org/public-health/commentary/safe-injection-sites-arent-safe-effective-or-wise-just-ask-canadians https://www.heritage.org/public-health/commentary/safe-injec...). I will even go so far as to say, I understand the NIMBY argument. I don't line the tent cities in Seattle and would rather they were not there. I would even agree with, "don't put these facilities in city centers, put these facilities in isolated remote locations with free transport to and from". Ideally, also colocate shelters, housing first (a debate for another day), and rehab in those remote areas. That said, the location of these facilities is a reasonable thing to debate, there are pros and cons to putting them in city centers, but please let's end the fallacy that "safe injection sites are a tax payer burden", when all of the data showcases otherwise.
- TedShiller 4y ago
  Of course I’m serious. The best way to stop using drugs is to have access to even more free drugs

I can't tell if you're being serious or not, but I feel it needs to be clarified. The reality is free drugs at safe injection sites, supported by the tax payer, is cheaper for the tax payer. Overdoses and emergency services for overdoses cost a LOT of money. "a period of 2 years and 3 months", "with a savings of over $2.3 million for the lifetime of the program"[0]. Roughly $1 MM per year for just the 1 city in this study (and the population of the city is relatively small). Additionally, there is a reduction in overall costs funded by the tax payer of rehab, help programs, etc because of benefits from colocation with the safe injection sites. Additionally, this study doesn't even include the long term savings from reduced police/boarder patrol workload. Not only do free drugs reduce the need for petty theft to fund an addiction (costing tax payer time to file insurance claims - let alone the improved safety of no more petty theft), but when drugs are free, there is no longer a profit for organized crime and smuggling. Reducing the overall tax payer burden for the city / country. [0] https://harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12954-022-00609-5 https://harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1...

bluedino 4y ago
It'd be even cheaper if they'd quit doing drugs.
- yazaddaruvala 4y ago
  Great! Clearly we both agree! Because the data shows that these facilities actual lead to more people quitting these addictions. Safe injection sites are always (to my knowledge) used as the start of a funnel to educational materials about rehab. As such long term wins are even better for the tax payer than what I said above. Especially when these people rejoin the workforce.
  - TedShiller 4y ago
    It's a perfect example of Biden Logic (TM): The best way to stop addicts from using drugs is to give them even more free drugs.
    - yazaddaruvala 4y ago
      > Biden Logic(TM) /sigh why does Biden need to be involved in our conversation. For anyone who reads my comments please don’t take this as a pro or against Biden thing. Right now I’m exclusively interested in critical analysis of free drugs at safe injection sites and helping people disconfirm their biases. > The best way to stop addicts from using drugs is to give them even more free drugs. It’s definitely counter intuitive, but 30 years of data speaks for itself (please see my other posts for citations). Now that you have the data, you can choose. Chose to help everyone in society including yourself, by changing your initial assumptions because of real world data. You could even just go half way, we need more data before I’m convinced but at least with the data we do have I’ll start considering the possibility. Or you can choose to hurt people, including yourself, by holding onto your incorrect intuition. Why would you want to be this type of person? I’d love to know. I hope one day everyone chooses to first and foremost disconfirm their biases, use more data to drive decisions, and starts actually helping create the society they say they want.
      - TedShiller 4y ago
        > It’s definitely counter intuitive, but 30 years of data speaks for itself (please see my other posts for citations). I agree. That's why, whenever I meet recovering alcoholics, I always send them a few cases of booze, because I know it will help them quit faster. Same with smokers. If I meet anyone trying to quit, I always leave them with a few boxes of free cigarettes. It's very counter intuitive, like you said, but the more temptation they have, the easier it is for them to quit.
        yazaddaruvala 4y ago
        Fair enough.. You’re free to believe and say whatever you believe. That said, while I truly wish you only good things in life, if you ever find yourself not happy with your previous decisions or not happy with your current life setting, I strongly recommend revisiting this comment thread and at least try to start being the type of person that first and foremost looks to disconfirm their biases. Thanks for your time.
diebeforei485 4y ago
Did you read the paper you cited? They don't look at all overdoses, only the overdoses that happen at these sites. It's a fairly weak paper and doesn't justify your claim. > This study only includes an analysis of known overdoses at the SCS site. Future research could also examine the rates of overdoses in the community, to achieve a broader understanding of overdose management and prevention across settings.
- yazaddaruvala 4y ago
  > They don't look at all overdoses, only the overdoses that happen at these sites. Overdoses that happen at the sites are overdoses that don't happen on the street. More studies: - https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/system/files/publications/2734/POD_Drug%20consumption%20rooms.pdf https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/system/files/publications/2734/... - https://www.aafp.org/pubs/afp/issues/2022/0500/p454.html https://www.aafp.org/pubs/afp/issues/2022/0500/p454.html - https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2015435 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2015435 - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34218964/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34218964/ More articles: - https://psmag.com/economics/how-supervised-injection-sites-can-help-users-and-cities https://psmag.com/economics/how-supervised-injection-sites-c... - [Highly Recommended] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/09/07/645609248/whats-the-evidence-that-supervised-drug-injection-sites-save-lives https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/09/07/6456092... In fact, I can't find a single study showcasing safe injection sites as a tax payer burden, nor can I find a study showcasing increased overdoses in surrounding areas, nor can I find studies of increased crime. The only articles against, that I've found are 1. religious/moral arguments; 2. "We need more data", "studies aren't robust enough" 3. NIMBY arguments like this(https://www.heritage.org/public-health/commentary/safe-injection-sites-arent-safe-effective-or-wise-just-ask-canadians https://www.heritage.org/public-health/commentary/safe-injec...). I will even go so far as to say, I understand the NIMBY argument. I don't line the tent cities in Seattle and would rather they were not there. I would even agree with, "don't put these facilities in city centers, put these facilities in isolated remote locations with free transport to and from". Ideally, also colocate shelters, housing first (a debate for another day), and rehab in those remote areas. That said, the location of these facilities is a reasonable thing to debate, there are pros and cons to putting them in city centers, but please let's end the fallacy that "safe injection sites are a tax payer burden", when all of the data showcases otherwise.
TedShiller 4y ago
Of course I’m serious. The best way to stop using drugs is to have access to even more free drugs