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I agree with this wholeheartedly, but I also think some of the burden should be placed on Europe’s leaders for not preparing more thoroughly for this scenario.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, but I also think some of the burden should be placed on Europe’s leaders for not preparing more thoroughly for this scenario. Trade is a great tool to mitigate and avoid conflicts like these, but the power balance was shifted too far into Russia’s favour here. Energy policy should have included means of establishing sovereignty over energy sources. Shutting down nuclear reactors was probably not the best move. Russian gas was cheaper, until it wasn’t. In hindsight, keeping domestic sources available would have been wise. Other policies to establish Russian economic dependence upon the West would have helped too. That said, only so much you can do with an autocrat.

LatteLazy 4y ago
You're not wrong but also no one can magic up energy out of nowhere...
- acid__ 4y ago
  I’m glad to see a shift in sentiments from Germany about nuclear power [0]. There have been warnings about energy dependence on Russia for years [1], maybe not long enough to spin up more nuclear plants but certainly enough time to make good progress on them. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/05/world/europe/germany-extend-life-nuclear-reactors.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/05/world/europe/germany-exte... [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/09/25/trump-accused-germany-becoming-totally-dependent-russian-energy-un-germans-just-smirked/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/09/25/trump-accuse...
  - isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago
    Don't mistake this for shift in sentiments. They are not going to continue using nuclear energy in mid or long term, just postpone its shutdown.
- michaelt 4y ago
  No, but Germany started a shutdown of nuclear power plants and the laying of the Nordstream gas pipeline as recently as 2011. I appreciate that major infrastructure projects take a long time to build - but a gas-heavy Russia-dependent energy mix was the deliberate choice very recently.
  - LatteLazy 4y ago
    The problem is gas is cheaper and more reliable than any alternative. It could have gone with Nuclear, but then it would have priced itself out of 101 industries decades ago. You can't blame them for taking cheap Russian gas to keep jobs and prosperity for a few decades...
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      >You can't blame them for taking cheap Russian gas to keep jobs and prosperity for a few decades... That's like saying: "you can't blame the drug addict for choosing short term highs for a few years"
      - LatteLazy 4y ago
        That's fine, but be careful where you turn that gaze. One reason Europe is so reliant on russian gas is because the US refused export licenses for a long time. Why? Because the US would rather have jobs in manufacturing than extraction. So US leaders are as much to blame for this as European ones. Another reason is instability in the Middle East and Iranian sanctions. Both also US choices that have shored up dependence on russian gas. Right now, the quickest way to more gas would be a rapid deal with Iran that cuts right through US sanctions...
        ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        Hmmm, if only Europe had access to this alien technology where you can slam neutrons into larger atoms and split them, creating energy in the process.
mrtksn 4y ago
If you think about it, Europe sends its produce and Russia sends its energy and everyone lives happily together. That interdependence in EU is what keeps peace in Europe, it's very unfortunate that it didn't work with Russia. The whole ordeal is ridiculous if you are not a dictator with fantasies about greatness. I'm inclined to think that EU and USA's mistake was to turn blind eye to failing democracies because when a country is not a democracy its leader can do all kind of crazy stuff fuelled with nationalism or another ideology instead of trying to stay in power by providing prosperity. Maybe there must be a rule about offloading dependence when a country turns into less and less democratic nation with leaders who stay in power through means you don't have control in. Surely sanctions bite and thats why Russia plays the energy card but it definitely would have bitten more or even deter the conflict if Putin was in power through proper governance.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >If you think about it, Europe sends its produce and Russia sends its energy and everyone lives happily together That energy was for Europe for more important than these produce for Russia. Our leaders are to blame for going on with this imbalance of leverage for so long and not taking measures or backups despite the US warning us on several occasions that Europe is vulnerable to Russian exploitation due to this imbalance. Unfortunately for us, out leaders are Muppets asleep at the wheel.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    That's only because Russia is not a proper democracy. Europe is poor on energy, leaders couldn't have chosen to export energy to Russia and buy their produce because the reality doesn't allow that. Instead, they did the next best thing and invest in energy efficiency. EU is quite efficient on energy use, making dependence on Russia lower than what it could have been. Many times the climate change is half of the story, the other half is that EU couldn't be lavish on energy use even if it wanted.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      >That's only because Russia is not a proper democracy. You're saying it as if that came as a complete surprise to the EU leaders and EU population, that Putin's Russia was not a "real" democracy. When the US and the Eastern Europe was warning for decades that Russia cannot be trusted. Yet Germany turned a blind eye.

LatteLazy 4y ago

You're not wrong but also no one can magic up energy out of nowhere...

acid__ 4y ago
I’m glad to see a shift in sentiments from Germany about nuclear power [0]. There have been warnings about energy dependence on Russia for years [1], maybe not long enough to spin up more nuclear plants but certainly enough time to make good progress on them. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/05/world/europe/germany-extend-life-nuclear-reactors.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/05/world/europe/germany-exte... [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/09/25/trump-accused-germany-becoming-totally-dependent-russian-energy-un-germans-just-smirked/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/09/25/trump-accuse...
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago
  Don't mistake this for shift in sentiments. They are not going to continue using nuclear energy in mid or long term, just postpone its shutdown.
michaelt 4y ago
No, but Germany started a shutdown of nuclear power plants and the laying of the Nordstream gas pipeline as recently as 2011. I appreciate that major infrastructure projects take a long time to build - but a gas-heavy Russia-dependent energy mix was the deliberate choice very recently.
- LatteLazy 4y ago
  The problem is gas is cheaper and more reliable than any alternative. It could have gone with Nuclear, but then it would have priced itself out of 101 industries decades ago. You can't blame them for taking cheap Russian gas to keep jobs and prosperity for a few decades...
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >You can't blame them for taking cheap Russian gas to keep jobs and prosperity for a few decades... That's like saying: "you can't blame the drug addict for choosing short term highs for a few years"
    - LatteLazy 4y ago
      That's fine, but be careful where you turn that gaze. One reason Europe is so reliant on russian gas is because the US refused export licenses for a long time. Why? Because the US would rather have jobs in manufacturing than extraction. So US leaders are as much to blame for this as European ones. Another reason is instability in the Middle East and Iranian sanctions. Both also US choices that have shored up dependence on russian gas. Right now, the quickest way to more gas would be a rapid deal with Iran that cuts right through US sanctions...
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        Hmmm, if only Europe had access to this alien technology where you can slam neutrons into larger atoms and split them, creating energy in the process.

mrtksn 4y ago

If you think about it, Europe sends its produce and Russia sends its energy and everyone lives happily together. That interdependence in EU is what keeps peace in Europe, it's very unfortunate that it didn't work with Russia. The whole ordeal is ridiculous if you are not a dictator with fantasies about greatness. I'm inclined to think that EU and USA's mistake was to turn blind eye to failing democracies because when a country is not a democracy its leader can do all kind of crazy stuff fuelled with nationalism or another ideology instead of trying to stay in power by providing prosperity. Maybe there must be a rule about offloading dependence when a country turns into less and less democratic nation with leaders who stay in power through means you don't have control in. Surely sanctions bite and thats why Russia plays the energy card but it definitely would have bitten more or even deter the conflict if Putin was in power through proper governance.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>If you think about it, Europe sends its produce and Russia sends its energy and everyone lives happily together That energy was for Europe for more important than these produce for Russia. Our leaders are to blame for going on with this imbalance of leverage for so long and not taking measures or backups despite the US warning us on several occasions that Europe is vulnerable to Russian exploitation due to this imbalance. Unfortunately for us, out leaders are Muppets asleep at the wheel.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  That's only because Russia is not a proper democracy. Europe is poor on energy, leaders couldn't have chosen to export energy to Russia and buy their produce because the reality doesn't allow that. Instead, they did the next best thing and invest in energy efficiency. EU is quite efficient on energy use, making dependence on Russia lower than what it could have been. Many times the climate change is half of the story, the other half is that EU couldn't be lavish on energy use even if it wanted.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >That's only because Russia is not a proper democracy. You're saying it as if that came as a complete surprise to the EU leaders and EU population, that Putin's Russia was not a "real" democracy. When the US and the Eastern Europe was warning for decades that Russia cannot be trusted. Yet Germany turned a blind eye.