9 ms·

This is the tone-deafness that ruins all efforts to actually convince people to take climate change seriously. It's extremely harmful. Yes high efficiency hea

This is the tone-deafness that ruins all efforts to actually convince people to take climate change seriously. It's extremely harmful. Yes high efficiency heat pumps are getting better. But they aren't readily available. If they are, very few companies install/service them. No one has them in the Midwestern area I live in. They also only work down to say -20F and we do have quite a few days below that so you can't just make natural gas illegal. Not to mention not everyone can afford it. Maybe let's focus on making them readily available and cheap instead of just banning things outright.

Spooky23 4y ago
Exactly. This is so stupid. There also isn’t a low temperature heat pump solution that works for radiators. I’m actually really interested in heat pumps as my boiler is a few years away from end of life. But I really resent being forced to do something drastic and end up buying some shitty first generation product because some advocate in a California coastal climate says so. If this comes to my state, I’ll hold my nose while doing it, but I’ll vote republican to stop it.
- hwillis 4y ago
  > There also isn’t a low temperature heat pump solution that works for radiators. There are. Here's one [1] that works down to -26 Celsius (47 F below freezing!!) and connects to radiators. In practice it will also work below -26 C, since multi-zone pumps can use other rooms to balance out reliance on the external radiator. It's also crazy efficient: at -13 C/5 F it still moves 12078.98 BTUs of heat per kWh of electricity consumed. At 10.42 cents/kWh that's nearly half the price of natural gas. [1]: https://www.fujitsu-general.com/us/products/vrf/j4/aou60rlavm4.html https://www.fujitsu-general.com/us/products/vrf/j4/aou60rlav...
  - sixstringtheory 4y ago
    -26°C is only -14.8°F, but your point stands, they’re getting better at lower temps.
    - hwillis 4y ago
      15 F is 47 F below freezing, which is what I meant to say.
  - denimnerd42 4y ago
    -40C is -40F so your conversion isn't right. We spend most of the winter night below 0F so these heat pump options don't look viable. Not to mention we have no where outside to put this thing it won't be covered in snow. Resistive heat is the only thing that seems viable and that's crazy expensive.
    - hwillis 4y ago
      47 F below freezing, not below zero. > We spend most of the winter night below 0F so these heat pump options don't look viable. The heat pump does not stop working or turn off at -15 F. It reaches COP=1. It still warms your house, just not more efficiently than resistive heat. Your house also stores warmth, and if insulated well it will not become cold during whatever period the temperature drops below -25 F. Failing both of those, just keep whatever heating you have right now. That's all you have to do. > Not to mention we have no where outside to put this thing it won't be covered in snow. You do. Put it on a stand. Hang it on a wall if you like. Put it on the roof. It does not need to sit on the ground.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - amluto 4y ago
    Really? Their catalogue suggests that it can connect to floor mount indoor units that replace radiators. That’s not quite the same thing. As I understand it, for two-pipe (hydronic) radiators, and air-to-water heat pump can operate them. Chiltrix makes one for residential use. Other vendors seem to mostly offer this feature for commercial use. For single pipe steam radiators, you need steam. I’ve never seen one of these systems that worked well, but if someone doesn’t want to replace it outright, any heat pump option will need very high output temperature.
    - jabl 4y ago
      IIRC there are heat pumps that provide up to 180C steam, but that's for industrial usage, I haven't seen anything like that for residential usage.
    - hwillis 4y ago
      So you'd buy a heat pump, but you don't want to buy the radiators for the heat pump? Why? If you like the look of steam radiators (and all of the burn/leak hazards that come with that), just keep the radiators and lose the steam. The difficulty in replacing things like steam radiators is that installing ducts in an existing house is too expensive and difficult. Multi-zone heat pumps let you avoid that.
      - Spooky23 4y ago
        They are more limited right now although newer models have emerged in the last 3 years. The split systems are a viable solution, but are aesthetically pretty awful. The point is that these types of retrofits are expensive and the tech is new. Now, we should be pushing lots of carrots to encourage installation. Take out the sticks later as the gas infrastructure starts to become obsolete. To me the mandate is the problem. In my case, I’ll gladly buy as soon as it’s viable for me. But I have the means to think that way.
      - amluto 4y ago
        One might be very willing to replace a boiler in the basement but much less willing to install new pipes in the walls.
  - denimnerd42 4y ago
    You've got to put this thing outside though right? So how do I keep it clear from snow? And not just a little snow. Snow that comes in 1 foot lifts day after day. I would need quite a big shelter to prevent snow drifts and give it the room it needs.
    - mixmastamyk 4y ago
      Winter awnings are a thing. Probably want it raised off the ground somewhat as well.
      - denimnerd42 4y ago
        Sounds like a maintenance/snow removal nightmare compared to a natural gas boiler for hydronic heat that just works. I'd need space for a huge natural gas backup generator too.
        mixmastamyk 4y ago
        If you're determined to fail, you will. Believe it is called learned helplessness.
        denimnerd42 4y ago
        ? that's uncalled for. It's called the right tool for the job and not introducing the fucking environment into my heating system more than necessary at 200-300" of snow per year and regular -20F or -30F nights. I would love to use a hyper efficient heat pump solution so I'm asking the questions here.
        mixmastamyk 4y ago
        Wasn't meant to be an insult, but I suppose it is a blunt fact that could be unwelcome. If you look for solutions, you'll eventually find them (within reason). The opposite holds as well.
    - 4y ago
- dont__panic 4y ago
  > There also isn’t a low temperature heat pump solution that works for radiators. Can't you use a heat pump to warm water in a boiler, and then pump hot water through a baseboard radiator heating system? Of course, most houses aren't set up for this. Just curious if it's a workable solution, or if I'm overlooking some problem.
- jabl 4y ago
  Sure there are. My father recently replaced his oil boiler with an air-source heat pump (from Mitsubishi). It plugs into the same hot water pipework for the radiators that the oil boiler was connected to, output temperature is around 60C. Efficiency obviously drops with temperature, but even at -20C it has a COP of around 2, finally shutting down and switching to resistive heating elements at -30C.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  https://electrek.co/2022/01/05/these-new-affordable-electric-heat-pumps-can-easily-replace-gas-boilers/ https://electrek.co/2022/01/05/these-new-affordable-electric... https://group.vattenfall.com/uk/newsroom/pressreleases/2022/vattenfall-launches-heat-pump-solution-to-replace-gas-boilers https://group.vattenfall.com/uk/newsroom/pressreleases/2022/...
olliecornelia 4y ago
throwaway0a5e 4y ago
The part that really annoys me is after these people wear out their welcome and get sufficiently marginalized the adults will have decades less with which to tackle the problems. The opportunity costs of pretending extremists like this have workable plans worthy of consideration is large.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
From the Sierra Club statement on Nuclear power: > The Sierra Club opposes the licensing, construction and operation of new nuclear reactors utilizing the fission process, pending: > The dangers posed by the probable releases of tritium used by fusion plants, the problems with decommissioning these plants, and their high costs lead the Sierra Club to believe that the development of fusion reactors to generate electricity should not be pursued at this time. The Sierra Club has always had an anti-human feel to it, starting with John Muir and his despicable racism toward the indigenous people.
- prescriptivist 4y ago
  Muir was a racist yes, but also he just really didn't like anyone. He was generally just a mercurial and unlikeable person. I read a biography of him, A Passion For Nature, a few years ago. I knew nothing about Muir going into the book and by the end I was ready for him to croak so I could finish the book and never think about him again.
- _fat_santa 4y ago
  It's hard to take them seriously with their policy prescriptions[1]. They mention that they oppose: coal power, nuclear power, hydroelectric power, and certain applications of solar power. Ok sierra club, please explain how we are going to generate power? I see this from activists alot. They recommend some bananas policy prescription, and when the experts in that field say "that's not possible" the reply is always: "well you're the expert, just figure it out". [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_Club https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_Club
bpoyner 4y ago
In large parts of New England they use heating oil, which is similar to diesel and pollutes the air more than natural gas. There are many things they could be taking on, but natural gas isn't the worst of them.
- bee_rider 4y ago
  A proper New Englander would be happiest without heat, but the pipes must be kept from freezing.
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    I'd gladly suffer through whatever cold it took to make the improper new englanders move elsewhere, which would make me very happy.
pacbard 4y ago
The problem with my experience in the Midwest (Michigan in particular) is that their power grid is so bad that I would lose electricity for an average of 1 week each year (the problem is so widespread that Michigan has laws in place to protect utility companies against customer claims for interruptions less than 5 days[^1]). If you get a nasty February ice storm that cuts a power line, you can be without electric power in 0F weather for up to 5 days. I guess people can install natural gas generators for that occurrence, but that seems to be a little bit counterintuitive (also, would a gas company provide emergency-only service?). I am not sure if heat pumps can work off regular gas powered portable generators that people usually use for emergency power. [1]: https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/mpsc/consumer/info/tips/mpsc-ca_electricoutageservicecredits.pdf?rev=39395f88253e49a98813c442d75bdb48 https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/mpsc/consu...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Kalium 4y ago
  To add to this, there was a major storm last week that knocked out power for significant chunk of the Detroit area for up to three days. That's in August, mostly from wind.
  - generallee5686 4y ago
    My neighbor was out from Monday until Friday evening. I think it was actually up to _6_ days...
  - alphabettsy 4y ago
    These kinds of storms happen rarely if ever happen in the winter and they typically happen in the spring and summer so I’m not sure how this presents much of an issue for heating. They seem to impact rural areas much worse though.
    - ridgered4 4y ago
      In the northeast all my worst power outages happened during the winter. Usually from ice storms or even just an overabundance of wet snow causing tons of tree limbs to come down at once.
tootie 4y ago
I actually disagree, but only because I'm reading between the lines. The place for carefully outlined policy with explicit exceptions, or funding associated with grid improvements or the like go through Congress and they know that. My take is that the Sierra Club is essentially making a very public opening bid in their bargain to reduce gas heating as much as possible. In a negotiation, you don't start with what you'd settle for. You start with the most extreme position you can plausibly stake out, then give up ground inch by inch to land at something reasonable. They'll get the chance to put their evidence on the record, maybe drag some witnesses to speak on the record, score some discovery wins, force a few rulings to set some precedent. And also they can fundraise like hell off of it. It's gamemanship for sure, but I support that they're pushing in the right direction.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  Gamesmanship like this is counterproductive when it gets everyone on your side grouped in with whoever on your side is playing "bad cop".
  - swatcoder 4y ago
    Can you provide some examples where non-trivial legislative or regulatory policies were changed without such bargaining games? By the nature of simply being an issue, you always have multiple power bases and advocacy groups staked out around a bureaucracy designed to do no more than it's forced to. If you have a better way to resolve issues than with this kind of postured negotiation, that would be wonderful, but it feels like it would also be pretty darn novel.
    - landemva 4y ago
      Some State initiatives to put MJ on the ballot were successful, and did not involve State legislature nor involve staking an extreme position. Sierra Club seems to be pandering to their donor base.
      - alphabettsy 4y ago
jlkuester7 4y ago
I agree with your take. This is my honest followup question: can eliminating gas alternatives from the equation help make electric heat pumps more cheep/available? It seems like in the short-term it could make things tricky, but long term it feels like competition in the heat pump market should result in better products and lower prices... I am not so naive as to think that government interference in a market will inevitably cause a good result, but it seems like properly targeted regulation can help trigger a market shift that is ultimately beneficial to the environment and to consumers...
- DubiousPusher 4y ago
  Elimination of competition usually has the opposite effect. Subsidies can have the effect you describe. Heat pumps have been subsidized for some time and they have simultaneously improved leaps and bounds over a short period. This subsidy is expanded under a law just signed into effect by the president. Even without these subsidies, heat pumps are more cost effective than natural gas in most cases. There is in fact almost no good reason to ban gas appliances at this point as they are going to decline rapidly without a ban. The Sierra Club in general is made up of out of touch rich people. This is 100% them letting their privellege flag fly. Edit: One thing I should've noted is that besides green house gas emissions there is a credible concern around the pollution produced by gas burning appliances. Several studies have shown a link between premature cardiovascular deaths and residential gas burning equipment. The issues are particularly pronounced among individuals with asthma. We should probably cease to use residential gas appliances in the near future but the way the market is going, a ban seems unnecessary and the imposition of such a ban would place serious burdens on the poor.
swatcoder 4y ago
> This is the tone-deafness that ruins all efforts to actually convince people to take climate change seriously. It's extremely harmful. It doesn't help when critics exaggerate what's being suggested. They're an issue advocacy group pushing for regulatory changes that will of course involve a long, slow transition window when actually enacted by the legislature or EPA. They're not asking for agents in jackboots to start seizing gas furnaces tomorrow. They're playing a necessary role in getting a slow-moving regulator to start moving forward on a plan that will take a decade to gradually roll out and that will incentivize further competition and innovation in alternative solutions over the course of five years or a decade or whatever.
- dudebrooo 4y ago
  Its just wild that in the last decades of such abundance very little resources are put towards the practical aspects of getting people off fossil fuels - they really just preach from their podium and nothing more - and now in the early months leading into the absolute winter of hell for hundreds of millions in Europe they decide to use this kind of rhetoric at the podium (god help us if anyone or any government takes the rhetoric seriously)
  - hwillis 4y ago
    > and now in the early months leading into the absolute winter of hell for hundreds of millions in Europe they decide to use this kind of rhetoric at the podium You're referring to natural gas shortages? If you used the natural gas in europe to generate electricity instead of heat, it would go 3.6x farther with heat pumps. So your rhetoric really seems to ring hollow.
    - yetanotherloser 4y ago
      3.6x, given 50% efficient generation and transmission, would require a heat pump COP about 7.2. Unfortunately real heat pump COPs are 3 or less, meaning the gas goes 1.5x further or less. This is still great (since it saves gas and there are other sources of electric) but unfortunately it's really high monetary cost (since the electric costs about 3x the gas, so even if the heat pump were free, it costs twice as much to run; electric prices follow gas prices closely so they don't get cheaper when gas runs short). So it's a hard sell. I think they're clever devices, I like them, I will probably buy one. But they're no panacea.
slavik81 4y ago
I tried to get a heat pump this summer when I got AC installed. The AC systems all worked with my existing furnace, but the dealer didn't have any heat pumps that could supplement my existing furnace. It was a sad moment for me when I had to give up on that.
- nightski 4y ago
  Yeah I just had the exact same experience. It was frustrating, I was really looking for a heat pump.
zionic 4y ago
Modern ones work, like you said, down to -20F. One important caveat however is that they don't not-work below -20F, they just fall back to "emergency heat" aka resistive coils. While of course emergency-heat uses far more power that power can still be green. The biggest problem remaining is cost, $20k+ for a 24 SEER heat pump is just bonkers.

Spooky23 4y ago

Exactly. This is so stupid. There also isn’t a low temperature heat pump solution that works for radiators. I’m actually really interested in heat pumps as my boiler is a few years away from end of life. But I really resent being forced to do something drastic and end up buying some shitty first generation product because some advocate in a California coastal climate says so. If this comes to my state, I’ll hold my nose while doing it, but I’ll vote republican to stop it.

hwillis 4y ago
> There also isn’t a low temperature heat pump solution that works for radiators. There are. Here's one [1] that works down to -26 Celsius (47 F below freezing!!) and connects to radiators. In practice it will also work below -26 C, since multi-zone pumps can use other rooms to balance out reliance on the external radiator. It's also crazy efficient: at -13 C/5 F it still moves 12078.98 BTUs of heat per kWh of electricity consumed. At 10.42 cents/kWh that's nearly half the price of natural gas. [1]: https://www.fujitsu-general.com/us/products/vrf/j4/aou60rlavm4.html https://www.fujitsu-general.com/us/products/vrf/j4/aou60rlav...
- sixstringtheory 4y ago
  -26°C is only -14.8°F, but your point stands, they’re getting better at lower temps.
  - hwillis 4y ago
    15 F is 47 F below freezing, which is what I meant to say.
- denimnerd42 4y ago
  -40C is -40F so your conversion isn't right. We spend most of the winter night below 0F so these heat pump options don't look viable. Not to mention we have no where outside to put this thing it won't be covered in snow. Resistive heat is the only thing that seems viable and that's crazy expensive.
  - hwillis 4y ago
    47 F below freezing, not below zero. > We spend most of the winter night below 0F so these heat pump options don't look viable. The heat pump does not stop working or turn off at -15 F. It reaches COP=1. It still warms your house, just not more efficiently than resistive heat. Your house also stores warmth, and if insulated well it will not become cold during whatever period the temperature drops below -25 F. Failing both of those, just keep whatever heating you have right now. That's all you have to do. > Not to mention we have no where outside to put this thing it won't be covered in snow. You do. Put it on a stand. Hang it on a wall if you like. Put it on the roof. It does not need to sit on the ground.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- amluto 4y ago
  Really? Their catalogue suggests that it can connect to floor mount indoor units that replace radiators. That’s not quite the same thing. As I understand it, for two-pipe (hydronic) radiators, and air-to-water heat pump can operate them. Chiltrix makes one for residential use. Other vendors seem to mostly offer this feature for commercial use. For single pipe steam radiators, you need steam. I’ve never seen one of these systems that worked well, but if someone doesn’t want to replace it outright, any heat pump option will need very high output temperature.
  - jabl 4y ago
    IIRC there are heat pumps that provide up to 180C steam, but that's for industrial usage, I haven't seen anything like that for residential usage.
  - hwillis 4y ago
    So you'd buy a heat pump, but you don't want to buy the radiators for the heat pump? Why? If you like the look of steam radiators (and all of the burn/leak hazards that come with that), just keep the radiators and lose the steam. The difficulty in replacing things like steam radiators is that installing ducts in an existing house is too expensive and difficult. Multi-zone heat pumps let you avoid that.
    - Spooky23 4y ago
      They are more limited right now although newer models have emerged in the last 3 years. The split systems are a viable solution, but are aesthetically pretty awful. The point is that these types of retrofits are expensive and the tech is new. Now, we should be pushing lots of carrots to encourage installation. Take out the sticks later as the gas infrastructure starts to become obsolete. To me the mandate is the problem. In my case, I’ll gladly buy as soon as it’s viable for me. But I have the means to think that way.
    - amluto 4y ago
      One might be very willing to replace a boiler in the basement but much less willing to install new pipes in the walls.
- denimnerd42 4y ago
  You've got to put this thing outside though right? So how do I keep it clear from snow? And not just a little snow. Snow that comes in 1 foot lifts day after day. I would need quite a big shelter to prevent snow drifts and give it the room it needs.
  - mixmastamyk 4y ago
    Winter awnings are a thing. Probably want it raised off the ground somewhat as well.
    - denimnerd42 4y ago
      Sounds like a maintenance/snow removal nightmare compared to a natural gas boiler for hydronic heat that just works. I'd need space for a huge natural gas backup generator too.
      - mixmastamyk 4y ago
        If you're determined to fail, you will. Believe it is called learned helplessness.
        denimnerd42 4y ago
        ? that's uncalled for. It's called the right tool for the job and not introducing the fucking environment into my heating system more than necessary at 200-300" of snow per year and regular -20F or -30F nights. I would love to use a hyper efficient heat pump solution so I'm asking the questions here.
        mixmastamyk 4y ago
        Wasn't meant to be an insult, but I suppose it is a blunt fact that could be unwelcome. If you look for solutions, you'll eventually find them (within reason). The opposite holds as well.
  - 4y ago
dont__panic 4y ago
> There also isn’t a low temperature heat pump solution that works for radiators. Can't you use a heat pump to warm water in a boiler, and then pump hot water through a baseboard radiator heating system? Of course, most houses aren't set up for this. Just curious if it's a workable solution, or if I'm overlooking some problem.
jabl 4y ago
Sure there are. My father recently replaced his oil boiler with an air-source heat pump (from Mitsubishi). It plugs into the same hot water pipework for the radiators that the oil boiler was connected to, output temperature is around 60C. Efficiency obviously drops with temperature, but even at -20C it has a COP of around 2, finally shutting down and switching to resistive heating elements at -30C.
toomuchtodo 4y ago
https://electrek.co/2022/01/05/these-new-affordable-electric-heat-pumps-can-easily-replace-gas-boilers/ https://electrek.co/2022/01/05/these-new-affordable-electric... https://group.vattenfall.com/uk/newsroom/pressreleases/2022/vattenfall-launches-heat-pump-solution-to-replace-gas-boilers https://group.vattenfall.com/uk/newsroom/pressreleases/2022/...

olliecornelia 4y ago

throwaway0a5e 4y ago

The part that really annoys me is after these people wear out their welcome and get sufficiently marginalized the adults will have decades less with which to tackle the problems. The opportunity costs of pretending extremists like this have workable plans worthy of consideration is large.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago

From the Sierra Club statement on Nuclear power: > The Sierra Club opposes the licensing, construction and operation of new nuclear reactors utilizing the fission process, pending: > The dangers posed by the probable releases of tritium used by fusion plants, the problems with decommissioning these plants, and their high costs lead the Sierra Club to believe that the development of fusion reactors to generate electricity should not be pursued at this time. The Sierra Club has always had an anti-human feel to it, starting with John Muir and his despicable racism toward the indigenous people.

prescriptivist 4y ago
Muir was a racist yes, but also he just really didn't like anyone. He was generally just a mercurial and unlikeable person. I read a biography of him, A Passion For Nature, a few years ago. I knew nothing about Muir going into the book and by the end I was ready for him to croak so I could finish the book and never think about him again.
_fat_santa 4y ago
It's hard to take them seriously with their policy prescriptions[1]. They mention that they oppose: coal power, nuclear power, hydroelectric power, and certain applications of solar power. Ok sierra club, please explain how we are going to generate power? I see this from activists alot. They recommend some bananas policy prescription, and when the experts in that field say "that's not possible" the reply is always: "well you're the expert, just figure it out". [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_Club https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_Club

bpoyner 4y ago

In large parts of New England they use heating oil, which is similar to diesel and pollutes the air more than natural gas. There are many things they could be taking on, but natural gas isn't the worst of them.

bee_rider 4y ago
A proper New Englander would be happiest without heat, but the pipes must be kept from freezing.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  I'd gladly suffer through whatever cold it took to make the improper new englanders move elsewhere, which would make me very happy.

pacbard 4y ago

The problem with my experience in the Midwest (Michigan in particular) is that their power grid is so bad that I would lose electricity for an average of 1 week each year (the problem is so widespread that Michigan has laws in place to protect utility companies against customer claims for interruptions less than 5 days[^1]). If you get a nasty February ice storm that cuts a power line, you can be without electric power in 0F weather for up to 5 days. I guess people can install natural gas generators for that occurrence, but that seems to be a little bit counterintuitive (also, would a gas company provide emergency-only service?). I am not sure if heat pumps can work off regular gas powered portable generators that people usually use for emergency power. [1]: https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/mpsc/consumer/info/tips/mpsc-ca_electricoutageservicecredits.pdf?rev=39395f88253e49a98813c442d75bdb48 https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/mpsc/consu...

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Kalium 4y ago
To add to this, there was a major storm last week that knocked out power for significant chunk of the Detroit area for up to three days. That's in August, mostly from wind.
- generallee5686 4y ago
  My neighbor was out from Monday until Friday evening. I think it was actually up to _6_ days...
- alphabettsy 4y ago
  These kinds of storms happen rarely if ever happen in the winter and they typically happen in the spring and summer so I’m not sure how this presents much of an issue for heating. They seem to impact rural areas much worse though.
  - ridgered4 4y ago
    In the northeast all my worst power outages happened during the winter. Usually from ice storms or even just an overabundance of wet snow causing tons of tree limbs to come down at once.

tootie 4y ago

I actually disagree, but only because I'm reading between the lines. The place for carefully outlined policy with explicit exceptions, or funding associated with grid improvements or the like go through Congress and they know that. My take is that the Sierra Club is essentially making a very public opening bid in their bargain to reduce gas heating as much as possible. In a negotiation, you don't start with what you'd settle for. You start with the most extreme position you can plausibly stake out, then give up ground inch by inch to land at something reasonable. They'll get the chance to put their evidence on the record, maybe drag some witnesses to speak on the record, score some discovery wins, force a few rulings to set some precedent. And also they can fundraise like hell off of it. It's gamemanship for sure, but I support that they're pushing in the right direction.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
Gamesmanship like this is counterproductive when it gets everyone on your side grouped in with whoever on your side is playing "bad cop".
- swatcoder 4y ago
  Can you provide some examples where non-trivial legislative or regulatory policies were changed without such bargaining games? By the nature of simply being an issue, you always have multiple power bases and advocacy groups staked out around a bureaucracy designed to do no more than it's forced to. If you have a better way to resolve issues than with this kind of postured negotiation, that would be wonderful, but it feels like it would also be pretty darn novel.
  - landemva 4y ago
    Some State initiatives to put MJ on the ballot were successful, and did not involve State legislature nor involve staking an extreme position. Sierra Club seems to be pandering to their donor base.
    - alphabettsy 4y ago

jlkuester7 4y ago

I agree with your take. This is my honest followup question: can eliminating gas alternatives from the equation help make electric heat pumps more cheep/available? It seems like in the short-term it could make things tricky, but long term it feels like competition in the heat pump market should result in better products and lower prices... I am not so naive as to think that government interference in a market will inevitably cause a good result, but it seems like properly targeted regulation can help trigger a market shift that is ultimately beneficial to the environment and to consumers...

DubiousPusher 4y ago
Elimination of competition usually has the opposite effect. Subsidies can have the effect you describe. Heat pumps have been subsidized for some time and they have simultaneously improved leaps and bounds over a short period. This subsidy is expanded under a law just signed into effect by the president. Even without these subsidies, heat pumps are more cost effective than natural gas in most cases. There is in fact almost no good reason to ban gas appliances at this point as they are going to decline rapidly without a ban. The Sierra Club in general is made up of out of touch rich people. This is 100% them letting their privellege flag fly. Edit: One thing I should've noted is that besides green house gas emissions there is a credible concern around the pollution produced by gas burning appliances. Several studies have shown a link between premature cardiovascular deaths and residential gas burning equipment. The issues are particularly pronounced among individuals with asthma. We should probably cease to use residential gas appliances in the near future but the way the market is going, a ban seems unnecessary and the imposition of such a ban would place serious burdens on the poor.

swatcoder 4y ago

> This is the tone-deafness that ruins all efforts to actually convince people to take climate change seriously. It's extremely harmful. It doesn't help when critics exaggerate what's being suggested. They're an issue advocacy group pushing for regulatory changes that will of course involve a long, slow transition window when actually enacted by the legislature or EPA. They're not asking for agents in jackboots to start seizing gas furnaces tomorrow. They're playing a necessary role in getting a slow-moving regulator to start moving forward on a plan that will take a decade to gradually roll out and that will incentivize further competition and innovation in alternative solutions over the course of five years or a decade or whatever.

dudebrooo 4y ago
Its just wild that in the last decades of such abundance very little resources are put towards the practical aspects of getting people off fossil fuels - they really just preach from their podium and nothing more - and now in the early months leading into the absolute winter of hell for hundreds of millions in Europe they decide to use this kind of rhetoric at the podium (god help us if anyone or any government takes the rhetoric seriously)
- hwillis 4y ago
  > and now in the early months leading into the absolute winter of hell for hundreds of millions in Europe they decide to use this kind of rhetoric at the podium You're referring to natural gas shortages? If you used the natural gas in europe to generate electricity instead of heat, it would go 3.6x farther with heat pumps. So your rhetoric really seems to ring hollow.
  - yetanotherloser 4y ago
    3.6x, given 50% efficient generation and transmission, would require a heat pump COP about 7.2. Unfortunately real heat pump COPs are 3 or less, meaning the gas goes 1.5x further or less. This is still great (since it saves gas and there are other sources of electric) but unfortunately it's really high monetary cost (since the electric costs about 3x the gas, so even if the heat pump were free, it costs twice as much to run; electric prices follow gas prices closely so they don't get cheaper when gas runs short). So it's a hard sell. I think they're clever devices, I like them, I will probably buy one. But they're no panacea.

slavik81 4y ago

I tried to get a heat pump this summer when I got AC installed. The AC systems all worked with my existing furnace, but the dealer didn't have any heat pumps that could supplement my existing furnace. It was a sad moment for me when I had to give up on that.

nightski 4y ago
Yeah I just had the exact same experience. It was frustrating, I was really looking for a heat pump.

zionic 4y ago

Modern ones work, like you said, down to -20F. One important caveat however is that they don't not-work below -20F, they just fall back to "emergency heat" aka resistive coils. While of course emergency-heat uses far more power that power can still be green. The biggest problem remaining is cost, $20k+ for a 24 SEER heat pump is just bonkers.