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I would argue that JS is not just a language, it's a mindset, and that mindset is, "I just want to write javascript, for the love of god don't make me learn mor

I would argue that JS is not just a language, it's a mindset, and that mindset is, "I just want to write javascript, for the love of god don't make me learn more than I absolutely have to." It's... unique, in the software dev world, I think. Node.js is not the right tool for this job, but god bless the folks who insist on using it here anyway.

speedgoose 4y ago
It’s not unique, check Python. They are simply two very popular development environments so you will get more tools.
- JimmieMcnulty 4y ago
  Python doesn't have anything remotely close to this problem, as you can't (reasonably) write Python for the browser. JavaScript has this problem because it's actually a somewhat attainable goal. The main problem is that once you run into a problem not explicitly solved for by whatever Node.js framework that's holding your hand, you're in deep trouble, very quickly, unless you have a more "classical" software development background.
  - speedgoose 4y ago
    You can write Python code for the browser, and it’s even good for some specific use cases. Dash or Gradio for example.
    - JimmieMcnulty 4y ago
      You can also write everything in binary directly.
  - yunohn 4y ago
    Which language do you use for web stuff?
    - JimmieMcnulty 4y ago
      JavaScript, which is why "you must hate JavaScript" is a confusing thing to say to me...
yunohn 4y ago
Well, the goal of software is to solve a problem or enable a usecase. It’s not to “write code”. I am experienced in tons of software programming paradigms and languages, but I couldn’t care less about the details if it doesn’t enable me to output something useful.
- JimmieMcnulty 4y ago
  So how many projects do you build in Brainfuck? After all, you don’t care about the details, as long as the language enables you to output something useful, and Brainfuck is Turing complete, so that checks your only box, yeah? …or maybe using the wrong tools is a terrible idea, and you really ought to care more about the details.
  - yunohn 4y ago
    Huh? You have misunderstood my point completely. I meant easy to use languages are better than hard to use but “technically better” languages. Brainfuck would be the last language to use for either scenario though.
    - JimmieMcnulty 4y ago
      JavaScript is decidedly not "easy to use" in any sense for building out and managing infrastructure. There are AWS/GCP/Azure APIs where you can fully manage your infra if you'd like via JavaScript. Nobody does this, however, for a reason. Lots of reasons, actually. That's what this submission is, a way to solve a problem in a much harder (and limiting) way than is necessary, given the other available tools that can be used to solve this problem. You'd be much better off learning something like Terraform to solve the problems being addressed here. Not everything has to be solved in JavaScript, and that's a uniquely "JavaScript" community solution, given how seemingly attainable it is to newer coders (which a lot of JS programmers are).
holoduke 4y ago
With JavaScript you just have a lot of haters and lovers. Not many I don't mind ones. You clearly fall on the hater category. That's not an issue, but the way you represent it is not true.
- JimmieMcnulty 4y ago
  Because I don't think JavaScript is useful for literally everything, I am therefore a hater? I don't think so.
jcusch 4y ago
Thanks for checking it out. We've definitely gone with a convienience first approach for the framework but realize that's not suited to every scenario. By the way, the underlying tech is written in Go and we're adding support for other languages if Node.js is a big concern https://nitric.io/docs/language-support https://nitric.io/docs/language-support
- JimmieMcnulty 4y ago
throwaway232521 4y ago
Typescript has a better type checker/type system over HCL (and IDE ergonomics), and it works pretty damn well in IaC [0]. [0]: https://www.terraform.io/cdktf https://www.terraform.io/cdktf disclaimer: I write both HCL and Typescript, and go, (& many more) for a living...

speedgoose 4y ago

It’s not unique, check Python. They are simply two very popular development environments so you will get more tools.

JimmieMcnulty 4y ago
Python doesn't have anything remotely close to this problem, as you can't (reasonably) write Python for the browser. JavaScript has this problem because it's actually a somewhat attainable goal. The main problem is that once you run into a problem not explicitly solved for by whatever Node.js framework that's holding your hand, you're in deep trouble, very quickly, unless you have a more "classical" software development background.
- speedgoose 4y ago
  You can write Python code for the browser, and it’s even good for some specific use cases. Dash or Gradio for example.
  - JimmieMcnulty 4y ago
    You can also write everything in binary directly.
- yunohn 4y ago
  Which language do you use for web stuff?
  - JimmieMcnulty 4y ago
    JavaScript, which is why "you must hate JavaScript" is a confusing thing to say to me...

yunohn 4y ago

Well, the goal of software is to solve a problem or enable a usecase. It’s not to “write code”. I am experienced in tons of software programming paradigms and languages, but I couldn’t care less about the details if it doesn’t enable me to output something useful.

JimmieMcnulty 4y ago
So how many projects do you build in Brainfuck? After all, you don’t care about the details, as long as the language enables you to output something useful, and Brainfuck is Turing complete, so that checks your only box, yeah? …or maybe using the wrong tools is a terrible idea, and you really ought to care more about the details.
- yunohn 4y ago
  Huh? You have misunderstood my point completely. I meant easy to use languages are better than hard to use but “technically better” languages. Brainfuck would be the last language to use for either scenario though.
  - JimmieMcnulty 4y ago
    JavaScript is decidedly not "easy to use" in any sense for building out and managing infrastructure. There are AWS/GCP/Azure APIs where you can fully manage your infra if you'd like via JavaScript. Nobody does this, however, for a reason. Lots of reasons, actually. That's what this submission is, a way to solve a problem in a much harder (and limiting) way than is necessary, given the other available tools that can be used to solve this problem. You'd be much better off learning something like Terraform to solve the problems being addressed here. Not everything has to be solved in JavaScript, and that's a uniquely "JavaScript" community solution, given how seemingly attainable it is to newer coders (which a lot of JS programmers are).

holoduke 4y ago

With JavaScript you just have a lot of haters and lovers. Not many I don't mind ones. You clearly fall on the hater category. That's not an issue, but the way you represent it is not true.

JimmieMcnulty 4y ago
Because I don't think JavaScript is useful for literally everything, I am therefore a hater? I don't think so.

jcusch 4y ago

Thanks for checking it out. We've definitely gone with a convienience first approach for the framework but realize that's not suited to every scenario. By the way, the underlying tech is written in Go and we're adding support for other languages if Node.js is a big concern https://nitric.io/docs/language-support https://nitric.io/docs/language-support

JimmieMcnulty 4y ago

throwaway232521 4y ago

Typescript has a better type checker/type system over HCL (and IDE ergonomics), and it works pretty damn well in IaC [0]. [0]: https://www.terraform.io/cdktf https://www.terraform.io/cdktf disclaimer: I write both HCL and Typescript, and go, (& many more) for a living...