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This can also be something of a trap. For some time now I have worked as a housecleaner and there is a common scenario that I have learned to avoid: Clients ar

This can also be something of a trap. For some time now I have worked as a housecleaner and there is a common scenario that I have learned to avoid: Clients are friendly and ask how you are. Cleaners then answer honestly about how this is an opportunity for them and hard physical work is all between them and crushing poverty. Clients are generally unprepared for the extreme problems that people living as cleaners may face, so the conversation tend to end roughly with clients wishing they had stuck to basic politeness instead of daring genuine inquisitiveness. As a result, when I train people to work with me as cleaners I specifically recommend that they be polite and conversational, but focus as much as possible on the task and the client. The reality is that most clients of cleaners tend to be genuinely disturbed by how cleaners live in this society and the challenges they face, so it is better to gloss over all of that.

LBJsPNS 4y ago
Because god knows the rich folks can't have their delicate psyche disturbed by the intrusion of reality. Yes, I know you have a business to run. I also know that if people are allowed to isolate themselves from uncomfortable realities, those realities are likely to continue.
- RHSeeger 4y ago
  This is overly condescending of rich folks. The "I wasn't looking for a real, detailed answer to _how are you_" is a common thing in the US. It's a pleasantry, and (for people you aren't close to), most people don't expect a detailed answer. It is in NO way unique to rich, poor, or any other segment of society in the US.
  - blueflow 4y ago
    Some people have thin skin and sometimes its tiring to work around it. I wish i could be more open about my "this and that is in shambles but i'll have managed it next week" without people getting uncomfortable.
    - RHSeeger 4y ago
      As noted, that is in no way unique to rich, poor, old, young, or any other segment of society in the US.
- lupire 4y ago
  It's more than that. The reality is what what the rich person is doing is wrong (taking advantage of people's desperation, as an opportunity to underpay for labor), but they can't handle facing it.
  - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
    I'm currently arranging for a cleaning company to come in and scrub my mothers house down and I'll also be paying them what they ask. In addition, I've been paying the same husband and wife to clean my house for something like 5 years now. How did I find them? I paid a company for a cleaning then offered the woman who showed up to cut said company out. They make more, I pay less. 5 years later and I've been completely happy with the arrangement, but I recently moved so will have to find someone else. --- I pay what I'm charged. If you want to blame someone for these workers not being paid enough, blame the companies employing them.
weego 4y ago
Is this satire? It's brutally on point
- hirako2000 4y ago
  Got to be satire when mentioning janitors. Can't find a worker to respect more than the janitor. A recurrent character of downfall into hell writings. Satire as well here: https://bit.ly/3KO3e5C https://bit.ly/3KO3e5C
- m0llusk 4y ago
  No, it is important. One of the more common scenarios that comes up is the flash of genuine fear clients get when they are informed this cleaning job was the only opportunity the cleaner was able to find after getting out of prison. What should be about them happily receiving service at a reasonable rate turns to dark doubts and a sharply increased rate of not being invited back which is a problem because being invited back and recommended by delighted clients is at the core of success for cleaners who endure.
inglor 4y ago
I believe a lot of people have a cordial/friendly relationship with their cleaner. I know my cleaner's wife and kids, have helped one of their kids get into coding and them to get access to training (bus-driving school, which they completed, then went back to cleaning because they didn't like the rude commuters). When I replace an appliance, my kid outgrows his cloths or I replace a laptop they've got second picks (after family) on hand-me-downs. It's also worth mentioning cleaners make a pretty decent wage here ($20+) and don't live in abject poverty. It's certainly not a glamorous life (and one some family members worked at at different points in their life) and it's hard work with few options for internal promotion - but it's not that soul-crushing for everyone.
- inglor 4y ago
  I think a part of it is that good cleaners are in very high demand here and I have an incentive to have a good relationship with them because it helps a lot in getting them to clean my house the way I like and for us to work around their holidays/time off and vice versa. It's also important to be nice to the cleaner since things become simpler logistically once you trust them with your house key and money to purchase cleaning supplies.
- P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
  same here. I recently moved but until that happened I had used the same husband and wife couple for something like 5 years. The husband is a bit of a handyman so they've picked up other work from me as well (fixing privacy fence, replacing things around the house, working on my car, and so forth). I've had them call me up because they were stuck in town due to a car breakdown and what not, and I've happily given them rides to places. Thing is, they both used to be into drugs, and they both got clean. My impression of them (especially the wife) is that they're hard working, honest people and I wish them the best in life. They're about 4 years from outright owning their house and I'm happy for them. They recently ran into car trouble and I've asked my brother to see if he can find something in their price range (strange as it sounds, his hobby is finding cheap vehicles and getting decent use out of them). At the end of the day we're all just people trying to get through life. I'm not trying to take advantage or cause harm and I trust they're not trying to take advantage or cause harm. We have our life circumstances and for this moment we're here, together. That sounds a bit like the temporary friend thing from fight club, but in some ways I think it's true.
RHSeeger 4y ago
> Clients are friendly and ask how you are. Cleaners then answer honestly This is not unique to interactions between the well off and not well off. It's true that in most case, when people ask "how are you", they're not looking for a detailed answer. It's a pleasantry, and the expected answer are of a more general form ("ok", "great", "not great, but getting by", "not a great day", etc). As a side note, I have a cleaning lady and have gone through a number of them over the years. Some of them we've been friendly with (we knew the names of her kids and asked about them, etc), some we were only passing acquainted with (friendly, but in the general way above). It can vary a lot depending on the people involved.
- lupire 4y ago
  Usually when someone has some trouble, if you can help you do your part, and the trouble isn't your fault. But when the issue is wealth inequality, the wealthier person can help, but doesn't want to, out of selfish greed, and is on the "team" that is at fault. The wealthy person is either wracked with guilt (and a hypocrite for not acting) or is an entitled jerk. Unless the employer are paying the cleaner a good wage (almost never happens), there is direct responsibility.
  - gbersac 4y ago
    Do the wealthy really have to feel sorry for being wealthy when others aren't?
  - golergka 4y ago
    > is on the "team" that is at fault He's not.
  - RHSeeger 4y ago
    > Usually when someone has some trouble, if you can help you do your part, and the trouble isn't your fault. There will always be someone that you can help. And there will always be another charity that wants your money. In many of those cases, the person or charity is a worthy cause. But you cannot help all of them, so you must decide which ones are important the most important to _you_ to help. When you turn away a charity because you've already decided to give to different ones, that doesn't mean you think the charity is unworthy, nor does it mean that you're a bad person for not giving to _that_ charity;
samatman 4y ago
When, and this is not a hypothetical, I'm getting to know someone socially, and they open up about the crushing difficulty of paying the bills with unskilled labor, I respond... like you'd expect a decent human being to respond. One who has been through periods of grinding poverty with no safety net, and escaped it through luck more than anything else. If I've hired someone to clean my house? Personally, I pay what a cleaner asks. I'd like us both to leave feeling at least ok: I have a clean house, they have money. If, and I do, I say "hey how's it going?" and I got a response which was about the emotional difficulty of earning a living, I would feel pretty uncomfortable, since I'm engaged, in real time, in exchanging money for services with this person. I'd wonder if I should be paying more, if I didn't tip enough last time. It's emotionally manipulative in context. I've gotten some insight into the lives of the three-person team who does clean my house, without them souring our professional relationship like this. Saying something open-ended like "times are tough, you know?" is plenty to open the door without, and I'm going to quote here: > Cleaners then answer honestly about how this is an opportunity for them and hard physical work is all between them and crushing poverty. Making the person who hired you uncomfortable about the contract you both entered into willingly, and with awareness of the broader economic circumstances and labor relationships involved.
- Rayhem 4y ago
  > Making the person who hired you uncomfortable about the contract you both *entered into willingly* Emphasis mine. If hard physical work is all that's between them and crushing poverty, as the OP said, there's some question of how far you can extend the notion of "willingness".
engineer_22 4y ago
Unpopular opinion: complaining about life circumstances isn't polite conversation with an acquaintance, especially a client. Your interlocutor will feel put upon, that if they don't engage sympathetically and try to help they will be seen as unfeeling or cruel. They may wonder if they are being emotionally manipulated.
- m0llusk 4y ago
  And what did you do before this? I was in prison. My recommendation is to stick to client needs and the job at hand. Do you advocate for answering questions directly?
- mgkimsal 4y ago
  Have had people do that to me when I'm buying from them, and first time it felt awkward. Typically, that's the last time I do business with them as well. 2001, I owed someone some money from a business transaction. They'd dragged their feet for weeks getting this done, and we'd already missed an initial deadline. She then sent me an invoice the instant I said "yeah, looks OK", and I got half a dozen calls and emails that afternoon demanding payment then. "Fedex a check". "I need this now". "I have to get my car repaired". The amount was just under $5k. Left a horrible bad taste in my mouth, and I never used that person again. I also told the person who'd connected us who was suitably... taken aback at how aggressive that pestering was, and subsequently they didn't do any more business either. I've been able to sense it ahead of times sometimes, and in other cases, I've gotten better at ignoring what I take as attempted manipulation. It's also made me perhaps a bit more (over?)sensitive to how what I'm saying to someone might be taken (or twisted).

LBJsPNS 4y ago

Because god knows the rich folks can't have their delicate psyche disturbed by the intrusion of reality. Yes, I know you have a business to run. I also know that if people are allowed to isolate themselves from uncomfortable realities, those realities are likely to continue.

RHSeeger 4y ago
This is overly condescending of rich folks. The "I wasn't looking for a real, detailed answer to _how are you_" is a common thing in the US. It's a pleasantry, and (for people you aren't close to), most people don't expect a detailed answer. It is in NO way unique to rich, poor, or any other segment of society in the US.
- blueflow 4y ago
  Some people have thin skin and sometimes its tiring to work around it. I wish i could be more open about my "this and that is in shambles but i'll have managed it next week" without people getting uncomfortable.
  - RHSeeger 4y ago
    As noted, that is in no way unique to rich, poor, old, young, or any other segment of society in the US.
lupire 4y ago
It's more than that. The reality is what what the rich person is doing is wrong (taking advantage of people's desperation, as an opportunity to underpay for labor), but they can't handle facing it.
- P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
  I'm currently arranging for a cleaning company to come in and scrub my mothers house down and I'll also be paying them what they ask. In addition, I've been paying the same husband and wife to clean my house for something like 5 years now. How did I find them? I paid a company for a cleaning then offered the woman who showed up to cut said company out. They make more, I pay less. 5 years later and I've been completely happy with the arrangement, but I recently moved so will have to find someone else. --- I pay what I'm charged. If you want to blame someone for these workers not being paid enough, blame the companies employing them.

weego 4y ago

Is this satire? It's brutally on point

hirako2000 4y ago
Got to be satire when mentioning janitors. Can't find a worker to respect more than the janitor. A recurrent character of downfall into hell writings. Satire as well here: https://bit.ly/3KO3e5C https://bit.ly/3KO3e5C
m0llusk 4y ago
No, it is important. One of the more common scenarios that comes up is the flash of genuine fear clients get when they are informed this cleaning job was the only opportunity the cleaner was able to find after getting out of prison. What should be about them happily receiving service at a reasonable rate turns to dark doubts and a sharply increased rate of not being invited back which is a problem because being invited back and recommended by delighted clients is at the core of success for cleaners who endure.

inglor 4y ago

I believe a lot of people have a cordial/friendly relationship with their cleaner. I know my cleaner's wife and kids, have helped one of their kids get into coding and them to get access to training (bus-driving school, which they completed, then went back to cleaning because they didn't like the rude commuters). When I replace an appliance, my kid outgrows his cloths or I replace a laptop they've got second picks (after family) on hand-me-downs. It's also worth mentioning cleaners make a pretty decent wage here ($20+) and don't live in abject poverty. It's certainly not a glamorous life (and one some family members worked at at different points in their life) and it's hard work with few options for internal promotion - but it's not that soul-crushing for everyone.

inglor 4y ago
I think a part of it is that good cleaners are in very high demand here and I have an incentive to have a good relationship with them because it helps a lot in getting them to clean my house the way I like and for us to work around their holidays/time off and vice versa. It's also important to be nice to the cleaner since things become simpler logistically once you trust them with your house key and money to purchase cleaning supplies.
P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
same here. I recently moved but until that happened I had used the same husband and wife couple for something like 5 years. The husband is a bit of a handyman so they've picked up other work from me as well (fixing privacy fence, replacing things around the house, working on my car, and so forth). I've had them call me up because they were stuck in town due to a car breakdown and what not, and I've happily given them rides to places. Thing is, they both used to be into drugs, and they both got clean. My impression of them (especially the wife) is that they're hard working, honest people and I wish them the best in life. They're about 4 years from outright owning their house and I'm happy for them. They recently ran into car trouble and I've asked my brother to see if he can find something in their price range (strange as it sounds, his hobby is finding cheap vehicles and getting decent use out of them). At the end of the day we're all just people trying to get through life. I'm not trying to take advantage or cause harm and I trust they're not trying to take advantage or cause harm. We have our life circumstances and for this moment we're here, together. That sounds a bit like the temporary friend thing from fight club, but in some ways I think it's true.

RHSeeger 4y ago

> Clients are friendly and ask how you are. Cleaners then answer honestly This is not unique to interactions between the well off and not well off. It's true that in most case, when people ask "how are you", they're not looking for a detailed answer. It's a pleasantry, and the expected answer are of a more general form ("ok", "great", "not great, but getting by", "not a great day", etc). As a side note, I have a cleaning lady and have gone through a number of them over the years. Some of them we've been friendly with (we knew the names of her kids and asked about them, etc), some we were only passing acquainted with (friendly, but in the general way above). It can vary a lot depending on the people involved.

lupire 4y ago
Usually when someone has some trouble, if you can help you do your part, and the trouble isn't your fault. But when the issue is wealth inequality, the wealthier person can help, but doesn't want to, out of selfish greed, and is on the "team" that is at fault. The wealthy person is either wracked with guilt (and a hypocrite for not acting) or is an entitled jerk. Unless the employer are paying the cleaner a good wage (almost never happens), there is direct responsibility.
- gbersac 4y ago
  Do the wealthy really have to feel sorry for being wealthy when others aren't?
- golergka 4y ago
  > is on the "team" that is at fault He's not.
- RHSeeger 4y ago
  > Usually when someone has some trouble, if you can help you do your part, and the trouble isn't your fault. There will always be someone that you can help. And there will always be another charity that wants your money. In many of those cases, the person or charity is a worthy cause. But you cannot help all of them, so you must decide which ones are important the most important to _you_ to help. When you turn away a charity because you've already decided to give to different ones, that doesn't mean you think the charity is unworthy, nor does it mean that you're a bad person for not giving to _that_ charity;

samatman 4y ago

When, and this is not a hypothetical, I'm getting to know someone socially, and they open up about the crushing difficulty of paying the bills with unskilled labor, I respond... like you'd expect a decent human being to respond. One who has been through periods of grinding poverty with no safety net, and escaped it through luck more than anything else. If I've hired someone to clean my house? Personally, I pay what a cleaner asks. I'd like us both to leave feeling at least ok: I have a clean house, they have money. If, and I do, I say "hey how's it going?" and I got a response which was about the emotional difficulty of earning a living, I would feel pretty uncomfortable, since I'm engaged, in real time, in exchanging money for services with this person. I'd wonder if I should be paying more, if I didn't tip enough last time. It's emotionally manipulative in context. I've gotten some insight into the lives of the three-person team who does clean my house, without them souring our professional relationship like this. Saying something open-ended like "times are tough, you know?" is plenty to open the door without, and I'm going to quote here: > Cleaners then answer honestly about how this is an opportunity for them and hard physical work is all between them and crushing poverty. Making the person who hired you uncomfortable about the contract you both entered into willingly, and with awareness of the broader economic circumstances and labor relationships involved.

Rayhem 4y ago
> Making the person who hired you uncomfortable about the contract you both *entered into willingly* Emphasis mine. If hard physical work is all that's between them and crushing poverty, as the OP said, there's some question of how far you can extend the notion of "willingness".

engineer_22 4y ago

Unpopular opinion: complaining about life circumstances isn't polite conversation with an acquaintance, especially a client. Your interlocutor will feel put upon, that if they don't engage sympathetically and try to help they will be seen as unfeeling or cruel. They may wonder if they are being emotionally manipulated.

m0llusk 4y ago
And what did you do before this? I was in prison. My recommendation is to stick to client needs and the job at hand. Do you advocate for answering questions directly?
mgkimsal 4y ago
Have had people do that to me when I'm buying from them, and first time it felt awkward. Typically, that's the last time I do business with them as well. 2001, I owed someone some money from a business transaction. They'd dragged their feet for weeks getting this done, and we'd already missed an initial deadline. She then sent me an invoice the instant I said "yeah, looks OK", and I got half a dozen calls and emails that afternoon demanding payment then. "Fedex a check". "I need this now". "I have to get my car repaired". The amount was just under $5k. Left a horrible bad taste in my mouth, and I never used that person again. I also told the person who'd connected us who was suitably... taken aback at how aggressive that pestering was, and subsequently they didn't do any more business either. I've been able to sense it ahead of times sometimes, and in other cases, I've gotten better at ignoring what I take as attempted manipulation. It's also made me perhaps a bit more (over?)sensitive to how what I'm saying to someone might be taken (or twisted).