4 ms·

As someone who pseudonymously defends the right of KiwiFarms to exist, I am pretty much guaranteed to lose my job if I am doxxed and targeted by the usual activ

As someone who pseudonymously defends the right of KiwiFarms to exist, I am pretty much guaranteed to lose my job if I am doxxed and targeted by the usual activist crowd. A trans woman who opposes KiwiFarms faces no comparable intrinsic threat, which is why I can't take these crybully attacks on speech seriously.

tomrod 4y ago
Why are you guaranteed to lose your job for the opinion? Transwomen face very real danger of death and harm[0], for the record, both generally and as a result of targeted doxxing and harassment in online forums. Since KiwiFarms does this, why do you not consider this an intrinsic threat? [0] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13691058.2019.1627420 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13691058.2019.1...
thunderfork 4y ago
I think you make a very good point here - if someone made a website with the exact format of KiwiFarms, but for "collecting info" on programmers who "love nazis" (in the same way that every KF thread's subject "deserves it" because of some disproportionately aggrandized sleight), all the HN users who are currently sobbing about the death of free speech would unite to say that the website should be deplatformed immediately. >A trans woman who opposes KiwiFarms faces no comparable intrinsic threat Yeah, man, a real swatting and bomb threat don't compare in the slightest to the scenario you've presented where someone defending KF gets fired, something that's definitely happened.
- yanderekko 4y ago
  >I think you make a very good point here - if someone made a website with the exact format of KiwiFarms, but for "collecting info" on programmers who "love nazis" (in the same way that every KF thread's subject "deserves it" because of some disproportionately aggrandized sleight), all the HN users who are currently sobbing about the death of free speech would unite to say that the website should be deplatformed immediately. No, I'd defend that website's existence. >Yeah, man, a real swatting and bomb threat don't compare in the slightest to the scenario you've presented where someone defending KF gets fired, something that's definitely happened. Keffels getting attacked by KF is obviously not strong evidence that any random trans woman who criticizes KF in any capacity will be attacked.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Volundr 4y ago
Given how many people on HN are indeed arguing that Cloudflare should not have booted KiwiFarms with well established accounts tied to real identities, either HN is about to have an unemployment spike or this just isn't true.
- subsistence234 4y ago
- yanderekko 4y ago
  Obviously the cancellation mob only has reach to a limited number of targets, like KiwiFarms. If Keffels or someone like them did in fact highlight someone and contact their employer I expect that this would have results.
  - Volundr 4y ago
    Sure, it doesn't need to happen to everyone to be a valid concern, but it needs to happen to someone. So who? Who is this person who has been attacked by the "cancellation mob" and fired for saying nothing more than "Cloudflare shouldn't have dropped Kiwifarms, if a crime was committed it was a matter for law enforcement?"
    - snoided 4y ago
    - thedorkknight 4y ago
      Wondering this as well. I'm open to being wrong, but I'm wondering if this is one of those cases where it feels that way to him because of other people saying it feels that way to them, self-reinforcing the sentiment
    - yanderekko 4y ago
      >Sure, it doesn't need to happen to everyone to be a valid concern, but it needs to happen to someone. It needs to happen to someone on both sides. So let me turn this around: Who has KiwiFarms doxxed and harassed simply for the act of being trans and saying that CloudFlare should drop KiwiFarms (or something similarly innocuous). imo the difference here is not "I have an example and you don't", but it's pretty clear from these discussions that a lot of people would be okay with people who defend KiwiFarms losing their jobs, while the thought of a trans person facing similar consequences for criticizing KiwiFarms is inplausible. Take the Cloudflare CEO's initial defense of not cutting service, which lead to a Harvard professor saying that Prince "simply wanted trans people dead", or something to that effect. If this is the kind of rhetoric that is considered okay in the current moment then what would happen if someone like me had posted a similar essay under my real name that caught the attention of Keffels or someone in her orbit? I can't prove it, but the outcome seems unfortunately obvious to me..
thedorkknight 4y ago
Do we have many/any examples of people defending free speech (note: not defending hate speech) losing their jobs for it? Honestly asking. I'd be interested in seeing how the number of incidents someone actually getting harmed by supporting free speech compares to the amount of people harmed for being trans or supporting trans rights
- snoided 4y ago
- darksaints 4y ago
  I'd be surprised to find any examples. People don't get fired for thinking that abhorrent free speech should be allowed, they get fired for sympathizing with it.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
HanSchwar 4y ago
Excuse my lack of understanding about the topic since I'm not American, but is this thread about the swatting of Marjorie Taylor Greene? Isn't she some U.S. ultraconservative politician? Seems a little bit weird that a "right wing forum" would SWAT one of their own representatives, claiming the hit while using a voice changer, just in the middle of an open crusade against them, while some trans activists are trying to taken them off the internet. Aren't swattings against members of the congress investigated in U.S.?
- yanderekko 4y ago
  The swattings are pretty obviously a false flag made to bring negative attention to KiwiFarms. The criminal literally left a message saying "this is my KiwiFarms account btw". The media of course took this at face value because when you hate someone enough you'll believe literally anything negative about them, or at least act like you believe it. But yes, swattings are still a pretty big deal and I suspect that someone will eventually be arrested for it! If so, and it turns out that the attack was a false flag, well... no one would care. The damage was done, and this person will probably be treated as a hero for what they did, albeit perhaps not too openly.

tomrod 4y ago

Why are you guaranteed to lose your job for the opinion? Transwomen face very real danger of death and harm[0], for the record, both generally and as a result of targeted doxxing and harassment in online forums. Since KiwiFarms does this, why do you not consider this an intrinsic threat? [0] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13691058.2019.1627420 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13691058.2019.1...

thunderfork 4y ago

I think you make a very good point here - if someone made a website with the exact format of KiwiFarms, but for "collecting info" on programmers who "love nazis" (in the same way that every KF thread's subject "deserves it" because of some disproportionately aggrandized sleight), all the HN users who are currently sobbing about the death of free speech would unite to say that the website should be deplatformed immediately. >A trans woman who opposes KiwiFarms faces no comparable intrinsic threat Yeah, man, a real swatting and bomb threat don't compare in the slightest to the scenario you've presented where someone defending KF gets fired, something that's definitely happened.

yanderekko 4y ago
>I think you make a very good point here - if someone made a website with the exact format of KiwiFarms, but for "collecting info" on programmers who "love nazis" (in the same way that every KF thread's subject "deserves it" because of some disproportionately aggrandized sleight), all the HN users who are currently sobbing about the death of free speech would unite to say that the website should be deplatformed immediately. No, I'd defend that website's existence. >Yeah, man, a real swatting and bomb threat don't compare in the slightest to the scenario you've presented where someone defending KF gets fired, something that's definitely happened. Keffels getting attacked by KF is obviously not strong evidence that any random trans woman who criticizes KF in any capacity will be attacked.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Volundr 4y ago

Given how many people on HN are indeed arguing that Cloudflare should not have booted KiwiFarms with well established accounts tied to real identities, either HN is about to have an unemployment spike or this just isn't true.

subsistence234 4y ago
yanderekko 4y ago
Obviously the cancellation mob only has reach to a limited number of targets, like KiwiFarms. If Keffels or someone like them did in fact highlight someone and contact their employer I expect that this would have results.
- Volundr 4y ago
  Sure, it doesn't need to happen to everyone to be a valid concern, but it needs to happen to someone. So who? Who is this person who has been attacked by the "cancellation mob" and fired for saying nothing more than "Cloudflare shouldn't have dropped Kiwifarms, if a crime was committed it was a matter for law enforcement?"
  - snoided 4y ago
  - thedorkknight 4y ago
    Wondering this as well. I'm open to being wrong, but I'm wondering if this is one of those cases where it feels that way to him because of other people saying it feels that way to them, self-reinforcing the sentiment
  - yanderekko 4y ago
    >Sure, it doesn't need to happen to everyone to be a valid concern, but it needs to happen to someone. It needs to happen to someone on both sides. So let me turn this around: Who has KiwiFarms doxxed and harassed simply for the act of being trans and saying that CloudFlare should drop KiwiFarms (or something similarly innocuous). imo the difference here is not "I have an example and you don't", but it's pretty clear from these discussions that a lot of people would be okay with people who defend KiwiFarms losing their jobs, while the thought of a trans person facing similar consequences for criticizing KiwiFarms is inplausible. Take the Cloudflare CEO's initial defense of not cutting service, which lead to a Harvard professor saying that Prince "simply wanted trans people dead", or something to that effect. If this is the kind of rhetoric that is considered okay in the current moment then what would happen if someone like me had posted a similar essay under my real name that caught the attention of Keffels or someone in her orbit? I can't prove it, but the outcome seems unfortunately obvious to me..

thedorkknight 4y ago

Do we have many/any examples of people defending free speech (note: not defending hate speech) losing their jobs for it? Honestly asking. I'd be interested in seeing how the number of incidents someone actually getting harmed by supporting free speech compares to the amount of people harmed for being trans or supporting trans rights

snoided 4y ago
darksaints 4y ago
I'd be surprised to find any examples. People don't get fired for thinking that abhorrent free speech should be allowed, they get fired for sympathizing with it.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

HanSchwar 4y ago

Excuse my lack of understanding about the topic since I'm not American, but is this thread about the swatting of Marjorie Taylor Greene? Isn't she some U.S. ultraconservative politician? Seems a little bit weird that a "right wing forum" would SWAT one of their own representatives, claiming the hit while using a voice changer, just in the middle of an open crusade against them, while some trans activists are trying to taken them off the internet. Aren't swattings against members of the congress investigated in U.S.?

yanderekko 4y ago
The swattings are pretty obviously a false flag made to bring negative attention to KiwiFarms. The criminal literally left a message saying "this is my KiwiFarms account btw". The media of course took this at face value because when you hate someone enough you'll believe literally anything negative about them, or at least act like you believe it. But yes, swattings are still a pretty big deal and I suspect that someone will eventually be arrested for it! If so, and it turns out that the attack was a false flag, well... no one would care. The damage was done, and this person will probably be treated as a hero for what they did, albeit perhaps not too openly.