6 ms·

This makes me immediately think about the Cobra effect anecdote (or fable?). Basically, the Indian gov't tried to control the snake population by offering a bou

This makes me immediately think about the Cobra effect anecdote (or fable?). Basically, the Indian gov't tried to control the snake population by offering a bounty, and people started breeding snakes and killing them for bounty money. Better writeup here: https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/systems-thinking-and-the-cobra-effect https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/systems-thinking-and-the-cobra-e...

Turing_Machine 4y ago
Seattle once had a similar (though likely far less dangerous) program, I believe. They paid a bounty on rats, and, yep, kids soon started breeding rats in their back yards.
GauntletWizard 4y ago
I think the key here is keeping it at hobby levels of funding: a few thousand dollars worth of prizes at sporting events is a motivator for amateurs, a few hundred thousand would bring out professionals.
- bell-cot 4y ago
  And if the d*mn things are sometimes "bag 200 in a single dive" common in the wild, the cost/benefit ratio for breeding them may not work out regardless.
t6jvcereio 4y ago
Yeah, people are gonna start breeding lionfish and sneaking them into their competitions /s
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- pvaldes 4y ago
  Mhhhh... probably not. Is "impossible" (for common people) to reproduce it in captivity and they are very expensive to keep and bread in aquariums. Pelagic larvae would not survive. No bounty would pay for their feeding and energy bills. This is why we can't breed lobsters in captivity. But deliberate capture in nature and releasing in another ocean can be still a problem. And new groups lobbying against its total eradication would surely be created. Killing invasive species for sport is in the origin of most invasions of alien species of fish in Europe. Probably the same in America also.
throwawaylinux 4y ago
Cheating in fishing competitions is a thing that happens.
Nekhrimah 4y ago
This happened in New Zealand with possums. Originally intentionally introduced to begin a fur trade industry in the 1800s [0], by the 1960s the Government was undertaking eradication efforts. One of these was a bounty, which resulted in possums being intentionally introduced into Northland so that the bounty could be collected there as well. [1] Northland is "cut off" from the rest of the non-urban area of New Zealand by Auckland, being an urban area from coast to coast. Possums had previously not spread through the city to Northland. The bounty took care of that. [0] https://teara.govt.nz/en/possums/page-1 https://teara.govt.nz/en/possums/page-1 [1] https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/2434006/A-hard-road-to-possum-profits https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/2434006/A-hard-road-to-poss...
grouchomarx 4y ago
fortunately lionfish are endlessly bountiful and incredibly easy to catch.
chasil 4y ago
From the article: "A female lionfish lays an average of twenty-seven thousand eggs every two and a half days." This reproduction looks to be so prolific that cheating isn't required. The ultimate solution to all of these problems is going to be a gene drive. Especially for the lionfish, edits that leave only male offspring will wipe out the problem in the Atlantic. The United States may condemn and punish such action, but the rest of Central and South America justly want their fishing industry back, and the outbreak likely came from the U.S. in the first place. When a gene drive is sufficiently cheap and accessible, one of them will release it.
- Ozzie_osman 4y ago
  How would you make sure the gene edits don't also wipe out the problem in their original habitat too?
  - Jedd 4y ago
    This is relatively straightforward. First, introduced species tend to, by definition, not breed with the 'original habitat' population, simply because they're separated by sufficient distances. Second, these types of gene terminator approaches tend to work relatively quickly - several generations, I think, but I've only read about these in insect populations where generations are months not years. Anyway, the fallback approach is to maintain a breeding stock of non-edited, isolated somewhere safe, and if the original habitat specimens do get wiped out accidentally you can re-introduce if appropriate. This is a good solution for mosquitoes - where you basically do want to wipe out a handful of species for a year or more, as the actual intent is to wipe out malaria (Plasmodium). Once that's done, you have the option to safely reintroduce those original-gene mosquito species.
    - cuteboy19 4y ago
      Why are the mosquitoes reintroduced? Wouldn't there always be the risk of parasite reinfecting the stock?
      - 4y ago
wrp 4y ago
Similar story with the Great Hanoi Rat Massacre. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hanoi_Rat_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hanoi_Rat_Massacre)

Turing_Machine 4y ago

Seattle once had a similar (though likely far less dangerous) program, I believe. They paid a bounty on rats, and, yep, kids soon started breeding rats in their back yards.

GauntletWizard 4y ago

I think the key here is keeping it at hobby levels of funding: a few thousand dollars worth of prizes at sporting events is a motivator for amateurs, a few hundred thousand would bring out professionals.

bell-cot 4y ago
And if the d*mn things are sometimes "bag 200 in a single dive" common in the wild, the cost/benefit ratio for breeding them may not work out regardless.

t6jvcereio 4y ago

Yeah, people are gonna start breeding lionfish and sneaking them into their competitions /s

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
pvaldes 4y ago
Mhhhh... probably not. Is "impossible" (for common people) to reproduce it in captivity and they are very expensive to keep and bread in aquariums. Pelagic larvae would not survive. No bounty would pay for their feeding and energy bills. This is why we can't breed lobsters in captivity. But deliberate capture in nature and releasing in another ocean can be still a problem. And new groups lobbying against its total eradication would surely be created. Killing invasive species for sport is in the origin of most invasions of alien species of fish in Europe. Probably the same in America also.

throwawaylinux 4y ago

Cheating in fishing competitions is a thing that happens.

Nekhrimah 4y ago

This happened in New Zealand with possums. Originally intentionally introduced to begin a fur trade industry in the 1800s [0], by the 1960s the Government was undertaking eradication efforts. One of these was a bounty, which resulted in possums being intentionally introduced into Northland so that the bounty could be collected there as well. [1] Northland is "cut off" from the rest of the non-urban area of New Zealand by Auckland, being an urban area from coast to coast. Possums had previously not spread through the city to Northland. The bounty took care of that. [0] https://teara.govt.nz/en/possums/page-1 https://teara.govt.nz/en/possums/page-1 [1] https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/2434006/A-hard-road-to-possum-profits https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/2434006/A-hard-road-to-poss...

grouchomarx 4y ago

fortunately lionfish are endlessly bountiful and incredibly easy to catch.

chasil 4y ago

From the article: "A female lionfish lays an average of twenty-seven thousand eggs every two and a half days." This reproduction looks to be so prolific that cheating isn't required. The ultimate solution to all of these problems is going to be a gene drive. Especially for the lionfish, edits that leave only male offspring will wipe out the problem in the Atlantic. The United States may condemn and punish such action, but the rest of Central and South America justly want their fishing industry back, and the outbreak likely came from the U.S. in the first place. When a gene drive is sufficiently cheap and accessible, one of them will release it.

Ozzie_osman 4y ago
How would you make sure the gene edits don't also wipe out the problem in their original habitat too?
- Jedd 4y ago
  This is relatively straightforward. First, introduced species tend to, by definition, not breed with the 'original habitat' population, simply because they're separated by sufficient distances. Second, these types of gene terminator approaches tend to work relatively quickly - several generations, I think, but I've only read about these in insect populations where generations are months not years. Anyway, the fallback approach is to maintain a breeding stock of non-edited, isolated somewhere safe, and if the original habitat specimens do get wiped out accidentally you can re-introduce if appropriate. This is a good solution for mosquitoes - where you basically do want to wipe out a handful of species for a year or more, as the actual intent is to wipe out malaria (Plasmodium). Once that's done, you have the option to safely reintroduce those original-gene mosquito species.
  - cuteboy19 4y ago
    Why are the mosquitoes reintroduced? Wouldn't there always be the risk of parasite reinfecting the stock?
    - 4y ago

wrp 4y ago

Similar story with the Great Hanoi Rat Massacre. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hanoi_Rat_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hanoi_Rat_Massacre)