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I ignore the janitor because of the obvious wealth disparity between us. He works just as hard as me but is doing a job nobody likes and is paid less for it. I

I ignore the janitor because of the obvious wealth disparity between us. He works just as hard as me but is doing a job nobody likes and is paid less for it. It's completely unfair. And when I just see the janitor it's all I think about. This article is like, be nice to the people you step on. Yeah. I don't disagree with that sentiment.

rayiner 4y ago
That seems like a rationalization to me, and one that doesn’t actually make anyone’s life better. Inequality is a fact of life. You both work hard, but you could do his job and he couldn’t do yours. He almost certainly knows that and has come to terms with it. You don’t interact with him because acknowledging the disparity causes you discomfort embarrassment. But doing that doesn’t make his life any better. And, of course, people aren’t just their jobs. Maybe you like the same sports team. Maybe he likes to talk about his kids. Who knows?
- swatcoder 4y ago
  > you could do his job Not me. And I suspect most of the rest of us here couldn’t either. Most of us would wipe a few sinks, and leave as soon as we found something more “fitting” of the class we believe ourselves to be in. That’s quitting a job, not doing a job. Doing any kind of hard labor for a career takes something that most of us tech people simply don’t have.
  - jahewson 4y ago
    No that’s ridiculous. I don’t want to do that job and I wouldn’t choose it but I absolutely can do it. I cleaned my own house just fine for 20 years before I hired someone else to do it for me.
  - JamesBarney 4y ago
    I literally had a close family friend who went from lawyer to janitor after he got fucked over by a couple of dirty prosecutors. And he was absolutely able to do the job of a janitor. Being a janitor is definitely a more labor intensive job than software but it doesn't compare to something like pouring concrete or roofing.
II2II 4y ago
> This article is like, be nice to the people you step on. The first step is to not step on those people. Simple things matter, like following simple requests (e.g. the placing the trash can next to the door mentioned in another thread). Attitude matters too. There is a reason why some places call janitors caretakers: they are there to maintain the physical spaces people work in, not to clean up people's messes.
- deltasevennine 4y ago
  You don't get it. I'm saying every engineer is stepping on him by virtue of being paid 10x more. We all step on him but NONE of us acknowledge it. We're all posers, pretending that being nice to him makes any difference.
  - II2II 4y ago
    Janitors realize that the people they work around have no control over what they earn in the vast majority of cases. What people do have control over is their behaviour towards janitors, whether their direct interactions are respectful and whether they make the job of those tasked to cleaning up easier or more difficult. Being nice also makes a difference in the sense that being nice makes a difference when you are working with your colleagues. Having healthy attitudes towards each other reduces stress and remove roadblocks to getting work done.
    - deltasevennine 4y ago
      You can control it. Give him part of your salary, instead of throwing him useless smiles and acknowledgment. Saying you can't control it is a lie you tell yourself to feel better. You obviously can control part of it. We all can. But why don't I give him my salary? Because I care more about my salary then his suffering. Same with you.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
knorker 4y ago
You don't have to make things worse, adding insult to injury. A 'hi' and smile costs nothing. Please at least give that. We're not asking that you give them part of your salary.
- deltasevennine 4y ago
  I'm not insulting the janitor. I'm insulting myself. And you. And everyone else who works at the company who steps on him. I'm saying, that a "hi" and a smile is utter bullshit. We all know we're stepping on him and a "hi" and a "smile" is opium to make us feel better about ourselves. You completely misinterpreted the post.
  - knorker 4y ago
    I don't think I misinterpreted. You're embarrassed about making more, right? It's not fair? You're not making it better by ignoring him. You're making it worse. You can't change capitalism. But you can change the world by adding humanity for the people you pass in your life. Not doing that adds insult (ignoring) to injury (unfair compensation). Believe me, I know the feeling of looking at my salary and feeling embarrassed.
    - deltasixthree 4y ago
  - bobsmooth 4y ago
    I think ignoring someone because you're embarrassed by them is only marginally better than ignoring someone because you think you're better than them. A smile and a nod are free.
    - deltasevennine 4y ago
      Marginally. And obvious. We don't need an article to tell us the basics about how to be decent people. The article wasn't written to tell engineers obvious things that we all already know and likely do. It was written to make us feel better about ourselves. "Be nice to poor people" is a better title for this article.
didericis 4y ago
If you think you’re stepping on the janitor, maybe you should stop. It’s a job, not a caste. When you apply to work somewhere as a janitor you expect to work as a janitor. Don’t pity people doing a job that pays less, you have no idea what their story is or why they’re doing what they’re doing. And if you think you aren’t adding to collective wealth and making salaries go further and further than they have before by growing the pie, maybe you should switch jobs and find one that keeps that pie growing.
- deltasevennine 4y ago
  - nobody9999 4y ago
    >I'm saying everyone including you participates in this fake BS. As if being nice to the janitor solves the fundamental problem. It just covers it up. Are you're saying that unless other folks make as much money as you do, they should not be treated with simple human respect, because doing so points up the inequality in our society? Wow. Being kind to the folks around you has nothing to do with wealth/income inequality or other issues in our society. Rather, it's about our shared humanity. What's more, being kind (or at least polite) is the least you could do. If you're not willing to do so unless that other person has something you want, what does that say about you? I'm not telling you what to do, think or say, but I hope i never meet you.
    - deltasevennine 4y ago
      >Are you're saying that unless other folks make as much money as you do, they should not be treated with simple human respect, because doing so points up the inequality in our society? Are you putting words in my mouth? Wow. Being kind to folks is basic knowledge. Everyone knows it. The article is obvious. It's not telling anyone anything new. Why was such an obvious article written? For what purpose. Certainly not to teach engineers to be nice to poor people. That's obvious... no need to teach them. It was written to make you feel better about yourself and your relative position to the people you step on everyday when they clean your toilet because you can't clean it yourself. >I'm not telling you what to do, think or say, but I hope i never meet you. How ironic. Being kind is basic knowledge. Yet you say something like this while purporting to be kind... even though it's quite obvious we are unlikely to ever meet. Why waste energy to say something we both know? Why did you say something so obvious? You said it to be mean. While pretending not to be mean. Why? Because it makes you feel better.
swatcoder 4y ago
If you step back and look at what you wrote, you’re saying you believe wealth disparity is awkward, and that you find it less awkward to ignore a person. The person you choose to ignore might not agree with you on either of those points, but you don’t let yourself find that out because you won’t talk to them. It might do you good to second guess yourself now and then, in order to escape these local minima.
- deltasevennine 4y ago
greendude29 4y ago
I see what you're saying and I'm half way there with you. The important things are: a) don't ignore (just in the same way you won't ignore any other person, it's not a status thing, just a human thing) b) don't patronize - the comments in this thread and the general "be nice to poor people" has a feel good condescension written all over it, which you're rightly calling out. But it is possible (and baseline important) to be respectful to anyone and not be condescending.
- deltasevennine 4y ago
  you have a point. I guess I'm more referring to the tendency and desire to ignore them. I'm embarrassed about my position, but I and most people won't ignore them as that's against common human decency. Feel good condescension is exactly my point. It's the perfect phrase to illustrate what I'm trying to say. Thanks.
actually_a_dog 4y ago
I agree with the first part of your comment, but as to the last, I think the message the article is trying to send is "Don't step on people."
NateEag 4y ago
You may find this post by someone who spent most of his life poor then became reasonably well-off enlightening, specifically his comments about how he was historically confused by the rich people in his life avoiding the topic of money: https://www.residentcontrarian.com/p/on-being-rich-ish-lessons-i-learned https://www.residentcontrarian.com/p/on-being-rich-ish-lesso... That is - you may feel much more awkward about the wealth disparity than the janitor himself does.
robocat 4y ago
About your flagged child comment: you are stating as fact you know how others think - you are wrong and even worse, you are rude. Are you assuming that others think like you do? Take care: I think your attitude is likely to result in strongly negative effects in your life. Also, please follow the HN guidelines - the guidelines were created to help encourage intelligent discussion. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deltasevennine 4y ago
  Think about it. Is your comment where you call me rude encouraging intelligent discussion? No. My comment wasn't flagged. I wasn't rude. I just have a different opinion then you. And you are misinterpreting that difference in opinion as rude.
3qz 4y ago
I agree with this. Talking to the janitor just makes both of us feel bad.

rayiner 4y ago

That seems like a rationalization to me, and one that doesn’t actually make anyone’s life better. Inequality is a fact of life. You both work hard, but you could do his job and he couldn’t do yours. He almost certainly knows that and has come to terms with it. You don’t interact with him because acknowledging the disparity causes you discomfort embarrassment. But doing that doesn’t make his life any better. And, of course, people aren’t just their jobs. Maybe you like the same sports team. Maybe he likes to talk about his kids. Who knows?

swatcoder 4y ago
> you could do his job Not me. And I suspect most of the rest of us here couldn’t either. Most of us would wipe a few sinks, and leave as soon as we found something more “fitting” of the class we believe ourselves to be in. That’s quitting a job, not doing a job. Doing any kind of hard labor for a career takes something that most of us tech people simply don’t have.
- jahewson 4y ago
  No that’s ridiculous. I don’t want to do that job and I wouldn’t choose it but I absolutely can do it. I cleaned my own house just fine for 20 years before I hired someone else to do it for me.
- JamesBarney 4y ago
  I literally had a close family friend who went from lawyer to janitor after he got fucked over by a couple of dirty prosecutors. And he was absolutely able to do the job of a janitor. Being a janitor is definitely a more labor intensive job than software but it doesn't compare to something like pouring concrete or roofing.

II2II 4y ago

> This article is like, be nice to the people you step on. The first step is to not step on those people. Simple things matter, like following simple requests (e.g. the placing the trash can next to the door mentioned in another thread). Attitude matters too. There is a reason why some places call janitors caretakers: they are there to maintain the physical spaces people work in, not to clean up people's messes.

deltasevennine 4y ago
You don't get it. I'm saying every engineer is stepping on him by virtue of being paid 10x more. We all step on him but NONE of us acknowledge it. We're all posers, pretending that being nice to him makes any difference.
- II2II 4y ago
  Janitors realize that the people they work around have no control over what they earn in the vast majority of cases. What people do have control over is their behaviour towards janitors, whether their direct interactions are respectful and whether they make the job of those tasked to cleaning up easier or more difficult. Being nice also makes a difference in the sense that being nice makes a difference when you are working with your colleagues. Having healthy attitudes towards each other reduces stress and remove roadblocks to getting work done.
  - deltasevennine 4y ago
    You can control it. Give him part of your salary, instead of throwing him useless smiles and acknowledgment. Saying you can't control it is a lie you tell yourself to feel better. You obviously can control part of it. We all can. But why don't I give him my salary? Because I care more about my salary then his suffering. Same with you.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

knorker 4y ago

You don't have to make things worse, adding insult to injury. A 'hi' and smile costs nothing. Please at least give that. We're not asking that you give them part of your salary.

deltasevennine 4y ago
I'm not insulting the janitor. I'm insulting myself. And you. And everyone else who works at the company who steps on him. I'm saying, that a "hi" and a smile is utter bullshit. We all know we're stepping on him and a "hi" and a "smile" is opium to make us feel better about ourselves. You completely misinterpreted the post.
- knorker 4y ago
  I don't think I misinterpreted. You're embarrassed about making more, right? It's not fair? You're not making it better by ignoring him. You're making it worse. You can't change capitalism. But you can change the world by adding humanity for the people you pass in your life. Not doing that adds insult (ignoring) to injury (unfair compensation). Believe me, I know the feeling of looking at my salary and feeling embarrassed.
  - deltasixthree 4y ago
- bobsmooth 4y ago
  I think ignoring someone because you're embarrassed by them is only marginally better than ignoring someone because you think you're better than them. A smile and a nod are free.
  - deltasevennine 4y ago
    Marginally. And obvious. We don't need an article to tell us the basics about how to be decent people. The article wasn't written to tell engineers obvious things that we all already know and likely do. It was written to make us feel better about ourselves. "Be nice to poor people" is a better title for this article.

didericis 4y ago

If you think you’re stepping on the janitor, maybe you should stop. It’s a job, not a caste. When you apply to work somewhere as a janitor you expect to work as a janitor. Don’t pity people doing a job that pays less, you have no idea what their story is or why they’re doing what they’re doing. And if you think you aren’t adding to collective wealth and making salaries go further and further than they have before by growing the pie, maybe you should switch jobs and find one that keeps that pie growing.

deltasevennine 4y ago
- nobody9999 4y ago
  >I'm saying everyone including you participates in this fake BS. As if being nice to the janitor solves the fundamental problem. It just covers it up. Are you're saying that unless other folks make as much money as you do, they should not be treated with simple human respect, because doing so points up the inequality in our society? Wow. Being kind to the folks around you has nothing to do with wealth/income inequality or other issues in our society. Rather, it's about our shared humanity. What's more, being kind (or at least polite) is the least you could do. If you're not willing to do so unless that other person has something you want, what does that say about you? I'm not telling you what to do, think or say, but I hope i never meet you.
  - deltasevennine 4y ago
    >Are you're saying that unless other folks make as much money as you do, they should not be treated with simple human respect, because doing so points up the inequality in our society? Are you putting words in my mouth? Wow. Being kind to folks is basic knowledge. Everyone knows it. The article is obvious. It's not telling anyone anything new. Why was such an obvious article written? For what purpose. Certainly not to teach engineers to be nice to poor people. That's obvious... no need to teach them. It was written to make you feel better about yourself and your relative position to the people you step on everyday when they clean your toilet because you can't clean it yourself. >I'm not telling you what to do, think or say, but I hope i never meet you. How ironic. Being kind is basic knowledge. Yet you say something like this while purporting to be kind... even though it's quite obvious we are unlikely to ever meet. Why waste energy to say something we both know? Why did you say something so obvious? You said it to be mean. While pretending not to be mean. Why? Because it makes you feel better.

swatcoder 4y ago

If you step back and look at what you wrote, you’re saying you believe wealth disparity is awkward, and that you find it less awkward to ignore a person. The person you choose to ignore might not agree with you on either of those points, but you don’t let yourself find that out because you won’t talk to them. It might do you good to second guess yourself now and then, in order to escape these local minima.

deltasevennine 4y ago

greendude29 4y ago

I see what you're saying and I'm half way there with you. The important things are: a) don't ignore (just in the same way you won't ignore any other person, it's not a status thing, just a human thing) b) don't patronize - the comments in this thread and the general "be nice to poor people" has a feel good condescension written all over it, which you're rightly calling out. But it is possible (and baseline important) to be respectful to anyone and not be condescending.

deltasevennine 4y ago
you have a point. I guess I'm more referring to the tendency and desire to ignore them. I'm embarrassed about my position, but I and most people won't ignore them as that's against common human decency. Feel good condescension is exactly my point. It's the perfect phrase to illustrate what I'm trying to say. Thanks.

actually_a_dog 4y ago

I agree with the first part of your comment, but as to the last, I think the message the article is trying to send is "Don't step on people."

NateEag 4y ago

You may find this post by someone who spent most of his life poor then became reasonably well-off enlightening, specifically his comments about how he was historically confused by the rich people in his life avoiding the topic of money: https://www.residentcontrarian.com/p/on-being-rich-ish-lessons-i-learned https://www.residentcontrarian.com/p/on-being-rich-ish-lesso... That is - you may feel much more awkward about the wealth disparity than the janitor himself does.

robocat 4y ago

About your flagged child comment: you are stating as fact you know how others think - you are wrong and even worse, you are rude. Are you assuming that others think like you do? Take care: I think your attitude is likely to result in strongly negative effects in your life. Also, please follow the HN guidelines - the guidelines were created to help encourage intelligent discussion. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

deltasevennine 4y ago
Think about it. Is your comment where you call me rude encouraging intelligent discussion? No. My comment wasn't flagged. I wasn't rude. I just have a different opinion then you. And you are misinterpreting that difference in opinion as rude.

3qz 4y ago

I agree with this. Talking to the janitor just makes both of us feel bad.