4 ms·

At my work people delete slack messages and recall emails occasionally. It is almost always for one of two reasons: there was an error in the message or it was

by TheTon 4y ago

At my work people delete slack messages and recall emails occasionally. It is almost always for one of two reasons: there was an error in the message or it was sent to the wrong channel / group. By deleting or recalling the message they're showing respect for other people's time. In general, I trust my colleagues to use this power benevolently. If I felt otherwise, I'd probably be looking for another job rather than installing something like this.

deanCommie 4y ago
100% I understand OP's sentiment, and even share it to a degree. It's 50% FOMO, and 50% a certain arrogance of "It made it to my client desktop, the bits are HERE, therefore they're mine now. How DARE you reach out remotely and remove them." Feels like a violation. But these feelings are silly, and life is too short to worry about such things. There are better things to optimize for and spend time on. This is a cool tech demo, but anyone who's thinking of using it PRACTICALLY should consider why they also don't root through their building's trash for nuggets others threw out.
- ceeg 4y ago
  See I'm pro freegan nugget liberating but as you said, definitely anti-this. I had a friend w an IM client in 2010 or so (maybe trillian?) with a plugin that notified him if I opened his profile to chat w him, as well as telling him whether I was really invisible, and finally one that gave a desktop notif if i was typing to him (NOT the typing indicator in a chat window with me). We were both into computers so he acted like it was a funny/novel piece of tech but he used it in daily life. Felt like stalkerware. You don't stalk your friends, and you don't violate their consent in the same way that friends dont use a patched snapchat client that disables screenshot notifs/keeps photos. Thats creeper shit!!!
  - jeromegv 4y ago
    aMSN had this feature because the MSN protocol would establish a connection as soon as a you opened a chat window (before you started typing!) in order to be able to retrieve the display picture from the other user. So you would be able to know that someone opened a chat window but decided against starting to type (or haven't decided quite yet they would want to type). This is documented in this old FAQ https://github.com/Kjir/amsn/blob/master/amsn/FAQ https://github.com/Kjir/amsn/blob/master/amsn/FAQ (Former aMSN developer) I admit now this is creepy.
    - shultays 4y ago
      Huh, was msn fetching the profile picture from other perso (p2p?), and not from msn servers?
      - GekkePrutser 4y ago
        It was early days for IM and I guess storage was expensive. Early ICQ didn't even store the contact list on the server so you had different contacts on every PC.
  - NesiG93vXQiSM8j 4y ago
    If I recall correctly, this was actually default behavior of one of the multi-IM clients at one point (maybe GAIM?).
    - gunapologist99 4y ago
      It'd be ok if that's the expectation. The social contract is such that both parties have agreed (by using the same client/network that offers those features), so changing it on only one side feels invasive because you had the expectation of privacy that you didn't actually have.
    - mlatu 4y ago
      there were options for all these things, yes. i also remember it in a multi im client like gaim or pidgin. i checked out that "open chat window once someone starts typing" once out of novelty value... but it felt to stalky to keep it active, and wasnt really handy at all. sometimes ppl misclick and open the wrong window and realize later, others are reading past discussions... really not that useful as a feature
shultays 4y ago
How is that respecting others time? They still got notification sound and now trying to figure out what that was about I hate when that happens.
- x3n0ph3n3 4y ago
  > They still got notification sound It astounds me that people use notification sounds for messenger and e-mail clients. How do you get anything done when being repeatedly distracted all day?
  - shultays 4y ago
    I dont find them as distracting. I think I am good at context switching. They only become an annoyance if you were following a thread and people are discussing in it with you nothing to add, in which case I unfollow it. I even find them sometimes helpful, they provide short breaks. If I want to focus hard on something I can just ignore them to check later
    - treeman79 4y ago
      When I was younger Constant context switching kept me productive all day long. Eventually was diagnosed as ADHD. Apparently keeping half a dozen things going at once was my coping method. First time on medication was surreal oh how I just worked on one thing at a time.
  - selfhoster11 4y ago
    > How do you get anything done when being repeatedly distracted all day? You're confusing productivity with reachability. I currently have my Slack set to be pretty sensitive to topics that concern me, but that's voluntary. In a previous workplace, Slack was noisy af and I felt pressured to keep it at maximum sensitivity. Of course that just made me more anxious.
  - GekkePrutser 4y ago
    It depends on the job. A large part of my job is collaboration. The times that I have to put my head down and focus are the exception and in those cases I will put myself on DND anyway. I think as a developer it would be very different.
gU9x3u8XmQNG 4y ago
Agreed. If this is an entirely corporate offering, with supporting EULA - you could accept it as simple monitoring requirements. But without that clear separation of corporate, and potential end user devices, this feels more to me perverse - like spying - than anything. You are removing the right for someone to make a mistake. That being said; the idea of a system to which a conversation is mutually engaged (“contract”), but to which a single party can immediately and entirely redact their contributions is flawed at best. Feels like some kind of in-between is required - hopefully with clear end user understanding.
- nightpool 4y ago
  Corporate Slack clients could just disable the ability to delete messages entirely in Slack's enterprise settings, no need to install a hacked client.
- slondr 4y ago
  Slack already does offer an in-between, as you can allow edits and redaction for a specific time frame, after which the chat history becomes immutable to all non-admins.
  - patrickserrano 4y ago
    I know it should probably be on the org itself to inform new users that those settings are being used, but I wish that Slack would do a better job of letting users know too. It's a weird experience noticing a typo in a message and not having the option to edit without any feedback as too _why_.
  - withinboredom 4y ago
    Doesn't stop the email with the original message though (you can get emails of messages). I once saw a coworker cussing out someone while the coworker was asleep. By the time we all woke up, the message had been edited into something nice and cordial. But knowing how much they were actually frustrated was a hint (at least to me) that I needed to take the cordial response seriously. Being able to see the original message someone shot off in anger and then revised into something nice is really handy as a manager. Especially if the entire team is remote and you can't tell things by body language.
rich_sasha 4y ago
Another category is passwords, muscle memory types them in and presses enter, only to find focus was in the wrong place. A bit mean to systematically retain.
- unnah 4y ago
  Any time you make an error like that you should immediately change your password anyhow. But I guess some people like to live dangerously.
  - rich_sasha 4y ago
    True. But if my password, or any other credentials, were leaked because someone in a trusted environment was scraping deleted messages, then storing it unsecurely, i wouldn't be impressed.
- Camillo 4y ago
  One thing that really doesn't help here is that Unix password entry traditionally hides the input text completely, instead of showing bullets. Normally you would notice pretty quickly if you're typing in the wrong place, since nothing is showing up where you expect it, but Unix terminals train users to expect no feedback when typing passwords, so they're more likely to type the full thing and press enter before noticing anything is amiss.
feintruled 4y ago
I imagine the intent of something like this is not really that people should install it, just a fully working PoC to show that your deleted messages are not really deleted and you should act appropriately if you type something you shouldn't have. It's just smart practice anyway, as even if the delete was foolproof you don't know who managed to see the message before you deleted it. (I will admit to an illicit thrill when I click no on the outlook pop-up that informs me someone wants to recall their message...)
treeman79 4y ago
I’m happy to have the ability to edit. I post on wrong channel all the time. Worst ever is one of those apps where you do /funny cat and a meme pops up. Did one once. And this crazy offensive thing popped up. Like sort that can get you fired. Learned that there was no way to delete it.

by TheTon 4y ago

deanCommie 4y ago

100% I understand OP's sentiment, and even share it to a degree. It's 50% FOMO, and 50% a certain arrogance of "It made it to my client desktop, the bits are HERE, therefore they're mine now. How DARE you reach out remotely and remove them." Feels like a violation. But these feelings are silly, and life is too short to worry about such things. There are better things to optimize for and spend time on. This is a cool tech demo, but anyone who's thinking of using it PRACTICALLY should consider why they also don't root through their building's trash for nuggets others threw out.

ceeg 4y ago
See I'm pro freegan nugget liberating but as you said, definitely anti-this. I had a friend w an IM client in 2010 or so (maybe trillian?) with a plugin that notified him if I opened his profile to chat w him, as well as telling him whether I was really invisible, and finally one that gave a desktop notif if i was typing to him (NOT the typing indicator in a chat window with me). We were both into computers so he acted like it was a funny/novel piece of tech but he used it in daily life. Felt like stalkerware. You don't stalk your friends, and you don't violate their consent in the same way that friends dont use a patched snapchat client that disables screenshot notifs/keeps photos. Thats creeper shit!!!
- jeromegv 4y ago
  aMSN had this feature because the MSN protocol would establish a connection as soon as a you opened a chat window (before you started typing!) in order to be able to retrieve the display picture from the other user. So you would be able to know that someone opened a chat window but decided against starting to type (or haven't decided quite yet they would want to type). This is documented in this old FAQ https://github.com/Kjir/amsn/blob/master/amsn/FAQ https://github.com/Kjir/amsn/blob/master/amsn/FAQ (Former aMSN developer) I admit now this is creepy.
  - shultays 4y ago
    Huh, was msn fetching the profile picture from other perso (p2p?), and not from msn servers?
    - GekkePrutser 4y ago
      It was early days for IM and I guess storage was expensive. Early ICQ didn't even store the contact list on the server so you had different contacts on every PC.
- NesiG93vXQiSM8j 4y ago
  If I recall correctly, this was actually default behavior of one of the multi-IM clients at one point (maybe GAIM?).
  - gunapologist99 4y ago
    It'd be ok if that's the expectation. The social contract is such that both parties have agreed (by using the same client/network that offers those features), so changing it on only one side feels invasive because you had the expectation of privacy that you didn't actually have.
  - mlatu 4y ago
    there were options for all these things, yes. i also remember it in a multi im client like gaim or pidgin. i checked out that "open chat window once someone starts typing" once out of novelty value... but it felt to stalky to keep it active, and wasnt really handy at all. sometimes ppl misclick and open the wrong window and realize later, others are reading past discussions... really not that useful as a feature

shultays 4y ago

How is that respecting others time? They still got notification sound and now trying to figure out what that was about I hate when that happens.

x3n0ph3n3 4y ago
> They still got notification sound It astounds me that people use notification sounds for messenger and e-mail clients. How do you get anything done when being repeatedly distracted all day?
- shultays 4y ago
  I dont find them as distracting. I think I am good at context switching. They only become an annoyance if you were following a thread and people are discussing in it with you nothing to add, in which case I unfollow it. I even find them sometimes helpful, they provide short breaks. If I want to focus hard on something I can just ignore them to check later
  - treeman79 4y ago
    When I was younger Constant context switching kept me productive all day long. Eventually was diagnosed as ADHD. Apparently keeping half a dozen things going at once was my coping method. First time on medication was surreal oh how I just worked on one thing at a time.
- selfhoster11 4y ago
  > How do you get anything done when being repeatedly distracted all day? You're confusing productivity with reachability. I currently have my Slack set to be pretty sensitive to topics that concern me, but that's voluntary. In a previous workplace, Slack was noisy af and I felt pressured to keep it at maximum sensitivity. Of course that just made me more anxious.
- GekkePrutser 4y ago
  It depends on the job. A large part of my job is collaboration. The times that I have to put my head down and focus are the exception and in those cases I will put myself on DND anyway. I think as a developer it would be very different.

gU9x3u8XmQNG 4y ago

Agreed. If this is an entirely corporate offering, with supporting EULA - you could accept it as simple monitoring requirements. But without that clear separation of corporate, and potential end user devices, this feels more to me perverse - like spying - than anything. You are removing the right for someone to make a mistake. That being said; the idea of a system to which a conversation is mutually engaged (“contract”), but to which a single party can immediately and entirely redact their contributions is flawed at best. Feels like some kind of in-between is required - hopefully with clear end user understanding.

nightpool 4y ago
Corporate Slack clients could just disable the ability to delete messages entirely in Slack's enterprise settings, no need to install a hacked client.
slondr 4y ago
Slack already does offer an in-between, as you can allow edits and redaction for a specific time frame, after which the chat history becomes immutable to all non-admins.
- patrickserrano 4y ago
  I know it should probably be on the org itself to inform new users that those settings are being used, but I wish that Slack would do a better job of letting users know too. It's a weird experience noticing a typo in a message and not having the option to edit without any feedback as too _why_.
- withinboredom 4y ago
  Doesn't stop the email with the original message though (you can get emails of messages). I once saw a coworker cussing out someone while the coworker was asleep. By the time we all woke up, the message had been edited into something nice and cordial. But knowing how much they were actually frustrated was a hint (at least to me) that I needed to take the cordial response seriously. Being able to see the original message someone shot off in anger and then revised into something nice is really handy as a manager. Especially if the entire team is remote and you can't tell things by body language.

rich_sasha 4y ago

Another category is passwords, muscle memory types them in and presses enter, only to find focus was in the wrong place. A bit mean to systematically retain.

unnah 4y ago
Any time you make an error like that you should immediately change your password anyhow. But I guess some people like to live dangerously.
- rich_sasha 4y ago
  True. But if my password, or any other credentials, were leaked because someone in a trusted environment was scraping deleted messages, then storing it unsecurely, i wouldn't be impressed.
Camillo 4y ago
One thing that really doesn't help here is that Unix password entry traditionally hides the input text completely, instead of showing bullets. Normally you would notice pretty quickly if you're typing in the wrong place, since nothing is showing up where you expect it, but Unix terminals train users to expect no feedback when typing passwords, so they're more likely to type the full thing and press enter before noticing anything is amiss.

feintruled 4y ago

I imagine the intent of something like this is not really that people should install it, just a fully working PoC to show that your deleted messages are not really deleted and you should act appropriately if you type something you shouldn't have. It's just smart practice anyway, as even if the delete was foolproof you don't know who managed to see the message before you deleted it. (I will admit to an illicit thrill when I click no on the outlook pop-up that informs me someone wants to recall their message...)

treeman79 4y ago

I’m happy to have the ability to edit. I post on wrong channel all the time. Worst ever is one of those apps where you do /funny cat and a meme pops up. Did one once. And this crazy offensive thing popped up. Like sort that can get you fired. Learned that there was no way to delete it.