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Bizarre study that does not shed much light on anything. Programming is most similar to algebra; anyone studying both at the same time can't help but see the o

Bizarre study that does not shed much light on anything. Programming is most similar to algebra; anyone studying both at the same time can't help but see the obvious connection. At least in the USA, algebra is typically taught in 7th, 8th, 9th, or 10th grade, not 4th or 5th. Fourth graders are usually more concerned with more foundational topics as multiplication and division. The same study in 8th or 9th grade would actually be interesting. Or on advanced fourth graders that are studying Algebra I. Or if you followed up years later to see if once the same children are in 8th grade, they have an easier time with Algebra I.

tsimionescu 4y ago
I am curious what exactly you mean by algebra here, that is studied in 7-10th grades but that is similar to programming. The only algebra I studied in that period was linear algebra (polynomial equations and systems of equations), and I don't see any obvious connection to general purpose programming (say, I don't see how that kind of algebra helps with understanding quicksort).
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  It helps with general concepts of manipulating variable and solving systems of equations will introduce you to your first symbolic algorithms. That gets you more than 50% of the way to understanding quicksort from zero.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    Speaking anecdotally, algebra taught me squat about variables. I didn't know what variables even were other than that it was some random letter with some random hidden number given by a teacher/textbook I had to solve for. Long after, programming then came along and taught me: * Variables are used to store data, including data of my choosing. Algebra never taught me that. * Variables can hold values besides just numbers. Algebra, and daresay math classes in general, never taught me that. * Variables can have math operations applied to it, and variables can be not-numbers. Therefore, things that are not numbers can have math applied to them. Literally nothing in math academia taught me that. I honestly think this recent push to teach kids how to program is a symptom of and response to long-standing failures in math academia. Kids hating math has become an age old stereotype, and I think there's some basis in reality for that. Namely, math academia /fucking sucks/ at giving context to the math that we ask kids to do. Programming gives some of that vital context, which in turn vastly improves the chances that someone will see the value in math and be inclined to learn more about it.
    - Tainnor 4y ago
      > * Variables are used to store data, including data of my choosing. Algebra never taught me that. That's because it's not true in mathematics (or declarative programming) the way it is in imperative programming. In mathematics, variables are sometimes just placeholders substitutable by a particular expression, sometimes they establish relationships between inputs and outputs (e.g. "f(x) = x^2") and sometimes they're even objects in their own right (for example in polynomials). > * Variables can hold values besides just numbers. Algebra, and daresay math classes in general, never taught me that. > * Variables can have math operations applied to it, and variables can be not-numbers. Therefore, things that are not numbers can have math applied to them. Literally nothing in math academia taught me that. Not sure why you're angry at "math academia" here when every undergraduate math degree will teach you plenty of maths that isn't (exclusively) about numbers, e.g. group theory, topology, graph theory, ... Do you mean "math education", maybe, instead of "math academia"? If so, I would share your criticism, at least in part.
      - Dalewyn 4y ago
        >In mathematics, variables are sometimes just placeholders substitutable by a particular expression, sometimes they establish relationships between inputs and outputs (e.g. "f(x) = x^2") and sometimes they're even objects in their own right (for example in polynomials). So what you're saying is variables store data. For some reason math academia absolutely failed to teach me /what/ variables are. Don't tell me to "solve for X", tell me what the bloody hell is a variable, why it's important to me, and what I can do with it. Programming told me, math academia didn't. >Do you mean "math education", maybe, instead of "math academia"? If so, I would share your criticism, at least in part. Math academia and education are one and the same as far as I'm concerned.
        Tainnor 4y ago
        > So what you're saying is variables store data. No? That's really not what I said. If I give you a polynomial in x and ask you to find its zeroes, that x is not really storing any "data". > Programming told me, math academia didn't. Except programming just told you what variables are in imperative programming, which is only indirectly related to what they are in mathematics (or even in functional programming). > Math academia and education are one and the same as far as I'm concerned. Then your criticism is unfounded because it doesn't pertain to actual "math academia". It's fine if you don't care about how variables are used in maths, but you can't blame maths education for not telling you about a programming concept.

tsimionescu 4y ago

I am curious what exactly you mean by algebra here, that is studied in 7-10th grades but that is similar to programming. The only algebra I studied in that period was linear algebra (polynomial equations and systems of equations), and I don't see any obvious connection to general purpose programming (say, I don't see how that kind of algebra helps with understanding quicksort).

sudosysgen 4y ago
It helps with general concepts of manipulating variable and solving systems of equations will introduce you to your first symbolic algorithms. That gets you more than 50% of the way to understanding quicksort from zero.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  Speaking anecdotally, algebra taught me squat about variables. I didn't know what variables even were other than that it was some random letter with some random hidden number given by a teacher/textbook I had to solve for. Long after, programming then came along and taught me: * Variables are used to store data, including data of my choosing. Algebra never taught me that. * Variables can hold values besides just numbers. Algebra, and daresay math classes in general, never taught me that. * Variables can have math operations applied to it, and variables can be not-numbers. Therefore, things that are not numbers can have math applied to them. Literally nothing in math academia taught me that. I honestly think this recent push to teach kids how to program is a symptom of and response to long-standing failures in math academia. Kids hating math has become an age old stereotype, and I think there's some basis in reality for that. Namely, math academia /fucking sucks/ at giving context to the math that we ask kids to do. Programming gives some of that vital context, which in turn vastly improves the chances that someone will see the value in math and be inclined to learn more about it.
  - Tainnor 4y ago
    > * Variables are used to store data, including data of my choosing. Algebra never taught me that. That's because it's not true in mathematics (or declarative programming) the way it is in imperative programming. In mathematics, variables are sometimes just placeholders substitutable by a particular expression, sometimes they establish relationships between inputs and outputs (e.g. "f(x) = x^2") and sometimes they're even objects in their own right (for example in polynomials). > * Variables can hold values besides just numbers. Algebra, and daresay math classes in general, never taught me that. > * Variables can have math operations applied to it, and variables can be not-numbers. Therefore, things that are not numbers can have math applied to them. Literally nothing in math academia taught me that. Not sure why you're angry at "math academia" here when every undergraduate math degree will teach you plenty of maths that isn't (exclusively) about numbers, e.g. group theory, topology, graph theory, ... Do you mean "math education", maybe, instead of "math academia"? If so, I would share your criticism, at least in part.
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      >In mathematics, variables are sometimes just placeholders substitutable by a particular expression, sometimes they establish relationships between inputs and outputs (e.g. "f(x) = x^2") and sometimes they're even objects in their own right (for example in polynomials). So what you're saying is variables store data. For some reason math academia absolutely failed to teach me /what/ variables are. Don't tell me to "solve for X", tell me what the bloody hell is a variable, why it's important to me, and what I can do with it. Programming told me, math academia didn't. >Do you mean "math education", maybe, instead of "math academia"? If so, I would share your criticism, at least in part. Math academia and education are one and the same as far as I'm concerned.
      - Tainnor 4y ago
        > So what you're saying is variables store data. No? That's really not what I said. If I give you a polynomial in x and ask you to find its zeroes, that x is not really storing any "data". > Programming told me, math academia didn't. Except programming just told you what variables are in imperative programming, which is only indirectly related to what they are in mathematics (or even in functional programming). > Math academia and education are one and the same as far as I'm concerned. Then your criticism is unfounded because it doesn't pertain to actual "math academia". It's fine if you don't care about how variables are used in maths, but you can't blame maths education for not telling you about a programming concept.