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How will renewables power Europe when the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing?

jl6 4y ago
For renewables, read renewables+storage.
pjc50 4y ago
How will gas power Europe when the Russians shut off the gas? If you want to go nuclear: OK, sure, so what do we use for power in the decade before the first plant comes online?
- almost_usual 4y ago
  Well Europe is already invested in LNG. I imagine there will be more LNG terminals being built despite it not being great for the environment. Ex: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/germany-announces-new-lng-facility-in-move-away-from-russian-energy/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/germany-announces-new-...
- jules 4y ago
  The advantage of nuclear is that it will work almost certainly, albeit possibly at a high cost. We should continue to invest into wind and solar where that makes economic sense. On the off chance that a magic energy storage technology comes along we can then phase out nuclear again. However, betting the future of an entire continent on the coming into existence of such a technology is wildly irresponsible.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    None of the advantages of nuclear answer pjc50's question. > coming into existence of such a technology The tech already exists in multiple forms, the question is the logistics of expanding the deployment of that tech. The conclusion remains valid, betting on that is irresponsible, but the energy storage isn't magic.
forgotusername6 4y ago
Europe is big enough that the wind is always blowing somewhere
- Krssst 4y ago
  Relying on this seems to imply strongly overbuilding for the worst case. Meaning all regions should have enough wind power capacity to compensate for the occasional lack of wind everywhere else.
- jules 4y ago
  That is not true. Wind output is highly correlated across the continent. Days in which wind output is very low happen regularly. In fact, every couple of years there is an entire week like that.
dukeofdoom 4y ago
Germany built out their electrical grid with twice the Solar capacity it needs to power the country. Problem is it achieves that kind of sun a few days a year. Germany is not California. Sorry. Not smart. It's a disastrous policy that will kill people.
- ben_w 4y ago
  > Germany built out their electrical grid with twice the Solar capacity it needs to power the country. Not so. Germany used 568.8 TW⋅h of electricity in 2021[0], or 64.9 GW on average. Even the nameplate capacity of PV is 58.7 GW, so less than use rather than double it, but the actual capacity factor — which is included in any reasonable definition of the capacity needed to power a country — brings it down to just under 10% of demand. All renewables together are just under half of demand right now.
throwtheacctawy 4y ago

jl6 4y ago

For renewables, read renewables+storage.

How will gas power Europe when the Russians shut off the gas? If you want to go nuclear: OK, sure, so what do we use for power in the decade before the first plant comes online?

almost_usual 4y ago
Well Europe is already invested in LNG. I imagine there will be more LNG terminals being built despite it not being great for the environment. Ex: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/germany-announces-new-lng-facility-in-move-away-from-russian-energy/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/germany-announces-new-...
jules 4y ago
The advantage of nuclear is that it will work almost certainly, albeit possibly at a high cost. We should continue to invest into wind and solar where that makes economic sense. On the off chance that a magic energy storage technology comes along we can then phase out nuclear again. However, betting the future of an entire continent on the coming into existence of such a technology is wildly irresponsible.
- ben_w 4y ago
  None of the advantages of nuclear answer pjc50's question. > coming into existence of such a technology The tech already exists in multiple forms, the question is the logistics of expanding the deployment of that tech. The conclusion remains valid, betting on that is irresponsible, but the energy storage isn't magic.

forgotusername6 4y ago

Europe is big enough that the wind is always blowing somewhere

Krssst 4y ago
Relying on this seems to imply strongly overbuilding for the worst case. Meaning all regions should have enough wind power capacity to compensate for the occasional lack of wind everywhere else.
jules 4y ago
That is not true. Wind output is highly correlated across the continent. Days in which wind output is very low happen regularly. In fact, every couple of years there is an entire week like that.

dukeofdoom 4y ago

Germany built out their electrical grid with twice the Solar capacity it needs to power the country. Problem is it achieves that kind of sun a few days a year. Germany is not California. Sorry. Not smart. It's a disastrous policy that will kill people.

ben_w 4y ago
> Germany built out their electrical grid with twice the Solar capacity it needs to power the country. Not so. Germany used 568.8 TW⋅h of electricity in 2021[0], or 64.9 GW on average. Even the nameplate capacity of PV is 58.7 GW, so less than use rather than double it, but the actual capacity factor — which is included in any reasonable definition of the capacity needed to power a country — brings it down to just under 10% of demand. All renewables together are just under half of demand right now.

throwtheacctawy 4y ago