3 ms·

Thats right - the fire departments should just stop protecting the houses of people you dislike so folks can burn them down in peace.

ivraatiems 4y ago
Fire departments are government agencies. I don't know how to be clearer about this: Government doesn't get to discriminate based on speech. Private entities do.
- OrangeMonkey 4y ago
  - ivraatiems 4y ago
    But you can't have it both ways. You can think firefighters should be a public entity run for the public good, or you can think firefighters ought to be private entities, and therefore that they should have discretion about who they provide service to. It'd be nonsense to say "they're private, except when they do things I don't like." In the US, the way we apply this to private corporations is by calling them "utilities" and subjecting them to stringent regulation. So do you support Cloudflare and other such companies being recognized as public utilities, like phone or electricity? Because that's what you're asking for, and honestly, I might take you up on it, even if this is the price. You just may not like what other regulations they might end up subjected to.
    - OrangeMonkey 4y ago
      If this site and its users were transported back to the 50's, they would be begging ma bell and the baby bells to ban the phone calls of people they dislike. "They are too dangerous!" and "They are harming XXXXXX communities!" If the alternative to this mob rule is regulation, then yes bring it on. "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Voltaire. Today he would be castigated and crucified by well-meaning fools.
      - ivraatiems 4y ago
        Did you know that regulators like the FCC frequently apply rules to the communications they regulate?[1] And that they do it based on a public-input formal rulemaking process?[2] Phone companies are not exempt.[3][4] You're essentially arguing against free speech as a concept just so that you get the outcome you want. You aren't going to escape from living in a society that sometimes finds things you're OK with objectionable. It's just a matter of who gets to pull the lever. I don't honestly understand why Kiwi Farms, of all things, is the thing that's worth saving from this... but even if it were something I personally loved, there's not a way to. You can have the government regulate speech, or you can have society regulate it. There's never going to be a perfect free-for-all, and there shouldn't be. [1] https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/obscene-indecent-and-profane-broadcasts https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/obscene-indecent-and-pr... [2] https://www.fcc.gov/about-fcc/rulemaking-process https://www.fcc.gov/about-fcc/rulemaking-process [3] https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/CFR-2012-title47-vol3/CFR-2012-title47-vol3-part64-subpartB https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/CFR-2012-title47-vol3/CF... [4] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/223 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/223
    - OrangeMonkey 4y ago
      For what its worth, I disagree with your statements but you are engaging in good faith and I appreciate the back and forth. Frankly, you are embodying desired HN behavior more than I am. Cheers.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Many hospitals in the US are private entities. They are absolutely forbidden to refuse emergency care to stabilize, and forbidden to turn away a woman in labor. By law. No matter how private they are, if they are open they must provide care or arrange for it to be provided. Similar regulations cover many private businesses - only some of which are utilities.
      - danShumway 4y ago
        Use whatever word you want, but Cloudflare is not regulated in the same way that a hospital is, and hospitals are not only regulated around who they can refuse service to. Regulations extend to the way that they advertise, which insurance they have to accept, what standards they have to follow in providing service, etc... Banks are private companies too and they're regulated in regards to who they can turn away as a client. I would hazard a guess that Cloudflare isn't eager to be regulated in the same way that a bank is. Keep in mind that for both hospitals and banks, the restrictions about what customers they can turn down are not as far-reaching as the 1st Amendment and public service restrictions are. What people are asking for with Cloudflare (don't take down a site's protection unless a court tells you to) is even stricter regulation than what a bank or a hospital has. Can you think of any private entity where they're not allowed to turn down service to any customer unless they're first ordered to by a judge?
  - KerrAvon 4y ago
    Guess what happens with private fire departments https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna39516346 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna39516346

ivraatiems 4y ago

Fire departments are government agencies. I don't know how to be clearer about this: Government doesn't get to discriminate based on speech. Private entities do.

OrangeMonkey 4y ago
- ivraatiems 4y ago
  But you can't have it both ways. You can think firefighters should be a public entity run for the public good, or you can think firefighters ought to be private entities, and therefore that they should have discretion about who they provide service to. It'd be nonsense to say "they're private, except when they do things I don't like." In the US, the way we apply this to private corporations is by calling them "utilities" and subjecting them to stringent regulation. So do you support Cloudflare and other such companies being recognized as public utilities, like phone or electricity? Because that's what you're asking for, and honestly, I might take you up on it, even if this is the price. You just may not like what other regulations they might end up subjected to.
  - OrangeMonkey 4y ago
    If this site and its users were transported back to the 50's, they would be begging ma bell and the baby bells to ban the phone calls of people they dislike. "They are too dangerous!" and "They are harming XXXXXX communities!" If the alternative to this mob rule is regulation, then yes bring it on. "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Voltaire. Today he would be castigated and crucified by well-meaning fools.
    - ivraatiems 4y ago
      Did you know that regulators like the FCC frequently apply rules to the communications they regulate?[1] And that they do it based on a public-input formal rulemaking process?[2] Phone companies are not exempt.[3][4] You're essentially arguing against free speech as a concept just so that you get the outcome you want. You aren't going to escape from living in a society that sometimes finds things you're OK with objectionable. It's just a matter of who gets to pull the lever. I don't honestly understand why Kiwi Farms, of all things, is the thing that's worth saving from this... but even if it were something I personally loved, there's not a way to. You can have the government regulate speech, or you can have society regulate it. There's never going to be a perfect free-for-all, and there shouldn't be. [1] https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/obscene-indecent-and-profane-broadcasts https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/obscene-indecent-and-pr... [2] https://www.fcc.gov/about-fcc/rulemaking-process https://www.fcc.gov/about-fcc/rulemaking-process [3] https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/CFR-2012-title47-vol3/CFR-2012-title47-vol3-part64-subpartB https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/CFR-2012-title47-vol3/CF... [4] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/223 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/223
  - OrangeMonkey 4y ago
    For what its worth, I disagree with your statements but you are engaging in good faith and I appreciate the back and forth. Frankly, you are embodying desired HN behavior more than I am. Cheers.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Many hospitals in the US are private entities. They are absolutely forbidden to refuse emergency care to stabilize, and forbidden to turn away a woman in labor. By law. No matter how private they are, if they are open they must provide care or arrange for it to be provided. Similar regulations cover many private businesses - only some of which are utilities.
    - danShumway 4y ago
      Use whatever word you want, but Cloudflare is not regulated in the same way that a hospital is, and hospitals are not only regulated around who they can refuse service to. Regulations extend to the way that they advertise, which insurance they have to accept, what standards they have to follow in providing service, etc... Banks are private companies too and they're regulated in regards to who they can turn away as a client. I would hazard a guess that Cloudflare isn't eager to be regulated in the same way that a bank is. Keep in mind that for both hospitals and banks, the restrictions about what customers they can turn down are not as far-reaching as the 1st Amendment and public service restrictions are. What people are asking for with Cloudflare (don't take down a site's protection unless a court tells you to) is even stricter regulation than what a bank or a hospital has. Can you think of any private entity where they're not allowed to turn down service to any customer unless they're first ordered to by a judge?
- KerrAvon 4y ago
  Guess what happens with private fire departments https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna39516346 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna39516346