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This wasn't just due to Twitter outrage. People are actually being targeted and harmed through this site. Hate and harm are not covered under free speech.

borski 4y ago
Not to mention that this isn’t the government shutting them down, but private companies and citizens; free speech is only protected against government censorship and retaliation, not that of private companies or citizens. Nobody is required to provide a platform for this.
inquirerGeneral 4y ago
- ratsmack 4y ago
  It seems that this is accepted behavior with the large corporate internet infrastructure companies, though. There are many in powerful government positions worldwide that applaud this behavior, because it is in vogue.
logicalmonster 4y ago
> This wasn't just due to Twitter outrage. People are actually being targeted and harmed through this site. I'm saying the following comment without knowing much about Kiwifarms and the back and forth drama about it other than some of the surface-level accusations. If people there were engaging in false swatting or other crimes, sure throw the book at those individuals. That's reprehensible behavior, and should be treated about as harshly as attempted murder IMO. But one big reason that I think taking down a website like this is very morally questionable without a court order is that there's no way for the public to know what really happened. Was Kiwifarms the site engaging in bad behavior, or were a few individual users there guilty of crimes? It's almost impossible to get an unbiased accounting of what actually happened there, and there's no way for an outsider to research this after the fact with the site down. I can't just trust a big corporation's word on what really happened here. Additionally, who really committed crimes? The level of drama around what happened there seemed personal and insane from the little I saw about it. If you were an unhinged person who was willing to take a "the ends justify the means" to "win", you'd probably be willing to create fake accounts on that site and engage in illegal activity to try and get a site shut down that you hated. I have no idea if this is the case, but it's hard to rule out anything when it comes to the level of personal drama that seemed to be going on there. > Hate and harm are not covered under free speech. Organizing harm against others probably isn't considered free speech by most legal systems or philosophers, but an expression of hate in and of itself is absolutely covered under free speech.
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  > But one big reason that I think taking down a website like this is very morally questionable without a court order is that there's no way for the public to know what really happened. Was Kiwifarms the site engaging in bad behavior, or were a few individual users there guilty of crimes? Kiwi Farms exists solely to serve as a breeding ground for harassers. This is not a case of some bad actors on the forum and mods/admins aren't doing anything about it because they're either, lazy, incompetent, or simply can't keep up. That would be true in the case of a site like reddit. No, the owners of Kiwi Farms are actively malicious and encourage bad behavior. Honestly, your comment feels like bad faith. It could be summed up as "I don't know anything about Kiwi Farms, therefore, nobody else does either, and they could be being unfairly targeted just because of a few bad actors on the site." > Organizing harm against others probably isn't considered free speech by most legal systems or philosophers Organizing harm against others is essentially the mission statement for Kiwi Farms.
  - logicalmonster 4y ago
    > Kiwi Farms exists solely to serve as a breeding ground for harassers. > Organizing harm against others is essentially the mission statement for Kiwi Farms. How are you such an informed expert in Kiwifarm's culture and mission statement? Your opinion may or may not reflect reality, but you don't sound the slightest bit objective about this at all. And given all of the censoring and deplatforming that has been done in the last few years, how can an outside observer take any of these types claims at face value? Whatever marginal trust I've had in taking these kinds of claims at face value has been squandered by censorious pricks. > No, the owners of Kiwi Farms are actively malicious and encourage bad behavior. First hand citations in context that can simply be judged for myself?
    - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
      You're commenting as if your ignorance on what Kiwi Farms is gives you some sort of moral high ground. As much as I hate to say "Do your research"...well...do some research. Start at the Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms). Check the sources for the article and make an actual informed decision rather than just acting like it's impossible to know and then acting like such a position is somehow virtuous. Kiwi Farms started as a forum created for the purpose of trolling and harassing the creator of a webcomic and escalated from there. This is easily verifiable information.

borski 4y ago

Not to mention that this isn’t the government shutting them down, but private companies and citizens; free speech is only protected against government censorship and retaliation, not that of private companies or citizens. Nobody is required to provide a platform for this.

inquirerGeneral 4y ago

ratsmack 4y ago
It seems that this is accepted behavior with the large corporate internet infrastructure companies, though. There are many in powerful government positions worldwide that applaud this behavior, because it is in vogue.

logicalmonster 4y ago

> This wasn't just due to Twitter outrage. People are actually being targeted and harmed through this site. I'm saying the following comment without knowing much about Kiwifarms and the back and forth drama about it other than some of the surface-level accusations. If people there were engaging in false swatting or other crimes, sure throw the book at those individuals. That's reprehensible behavior, and should be treated about as harshly as attempted murder IMO. But one big reason that I think taking down a website like this is very morally questionable without a court order is that there's no way for the public to know what really happened. Was Kiwifarms the site engaging in bad behavior, or were a few individual users there guilty of crimes? It's almost impossible to get an unbiased accounting of what actually happened there, and there's no way for an outsider to research this after the fact with the site down. I can't just trust a big corporation's word on what really happened here. Additionally, who really committed crimes? The level of drama around what happened there seemed personal and insane from the little I saw about it. If you were an unhinged person who was willing to take a "the ends justify the means" to "win", you'd probably be willing to create fake accounts on that site and engage in illegal activity to try and get a site shut down that you hated. I have no idea if this is the case, but it's hard to rule out anything when it comes to the level of personal drama that seemed to be going on there. > Hate and harm are not covered under free speech. Organizing harm against others probably isn't considered free speech by most legal systems or philosophers, but an expression of hate in and of itself is absolutely covered under free speech.

Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
> But one big reason that I think taking down a website like this is very morally questionable without a court order is that there's no way for the public to know what really happened. Was Kiwifarms the site engaging in bad behavior, or were a few individual users there guilty of crimes? Kiwi Farms exists solely to serve as a breeding ground for harassers. This is not a case of some bad actors on the forum and mods/admins aren't doing anything about it because they're either, lazy, incompetent, or simply can't keep up. That would be true in the case of a site like reddit. No, the owners of Kiwi Farms are actively malicious and encourage bad behavior. Honestly, your comment feels like bad faith. It could be summed up as "I don't know anything about Kiwi Farms, therefore, nobody else does either, and they could be being unfairly targeted just because of a few bad actors on the site." > Organizing harm against others probably isn't considered free speech by most legal systems or philosophers Organizing harm against others is essentially the mission statement for Kiwi Farms.
- logicalmonster 4y ago
  > Kiwi Farms exists solely to serve as a breeding ground for harassers. > Organizing harm against others is essentially the mission statement for Kiwi Farms. How are you such an informed expert in Kiwifarm's culture and mission statement? Your opinion may or may not reflect reality, but you don't sound the slightest bit objective about this at all. And given all of the censoring and deplatforming that has been done in the last few years, how can an outside observer take any of these types claims at face value? Whatever marginal trust I've had in taking these kinds of claims at face value has been squandered by censorious pricks. > No, the owners of Kiwi Farms are actively malicious and encourage bad behavior. First hand citations in context that can simply be judged for myself?
  - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
    You're commenting as if your ignorance on what Kiwi Farms is gives you some sort of moral high ground. As much as I hate to say "Do your research"...well...do some research. Start at the Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms). Check the sources for the article and make an actual informed decision rather than just acting like it's impossible to know and then acting like such a position is somehow virtuous. Kiwi Farms started as a forum created for the purpose of trolling and harassing the creator of a webcomic and escalated from there. This is easily verifiable information.