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The problem with salem witch trials du jour so fervently pushed by certain groups of people is closing to its demise with every case like this. The advantage of

The problem with salem witch trials du jour so fervently pushed by certain groups of people is closing to its demise with every case like this. The advantage of emotionally immature people (regardless of their actual age) having too much time on their hands forcing their narrative and banning any discourse that they don't like will eventually cease when the majority of people will realize that they are, well, in a majority, and it's time to put stop to this madness. In other news, http://uquusqsaaad66cvub4473csdu4uu7ahxou3zqc35fpw5d4ificedzyqd.onion/ http://uquusqsaaad66cvub4473csdu4uu7ahxou3zqc35fpw5d4ificedz... is up.

pxeger1 4y ago
(I'm inferring that your comment is supporting KiwiFarms. If this is not the case, you should probably re-word it.) > salem witch trials du jour so fervently pushed by certain groups of people Hunting trans people and pushing them to suicide sounds like much more of a witch trial to me. > forcing their narrative and banning any discourse that they don't like Telling to people to kill themselves is "discourse" that we merely "don't like"? > put stop to this madness Even if you're a raging transphobe, how can you possibly think being trans is more madness than pushing people to kill themselves?
- neonsunset 4y ago
  Your response is a perfect demonstration of the issue at hand and the choice of words is driven by a desire to silence the people who question the logic of a tribe you perceive yourself a part of: nothing in my post indicated support of some narrow part of the spectrum of opinions yet you make an assumption and go through with accusation anyway. As Paul Graham himself put this, anyone suspected of supporting yellowists is to be investigated for missteps and once one is found to the trial they go.
- ratsmack 4y ago
  Supporting Kiwi Farms right to exist is not the same as supporting the content.
  - Febra33 4y ago
    It has a right to exist. CF has the right to choose their clients. I really don't see your problem. If they want to exist, they can host themselves and/or use TOR.
    - 650 4y ago
      If they want to exist they can roll their own framework, host themselves, make their own chips, mine their own ore.
  - borski 4y ago
    You’re right, but they’re related. KF has a right to exist. But if they want to be part of society at large, society owes them no great debt; they are welcome to remain insular and talk about their bullshit amongst themselves, or even host their own CDN mitigation service if nobody wants to work with them, but nobody is required to give them a platform to spew their odious content.
  - pxeger1 4y ago
    KF has a responsibility to abide by the law. By extension, it has a responsibility to ensure its users do not use it to break the law. I support KF's right to exist, but not in this state.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
spurgelaurels 4y ago
You do realize that this wasn't simply about "discourse", yes? This was about active doxxing and swatting of real living human beings. Being transphobic might be just an (ignorant) opinion, but actively working to harm people needs to be shut right down.
- _vvaw 4y ago
  SWATing and harassment is explicitly prohibited on Kiwi Farms, and the site owner aggressively removes such content. "Doxing" is for better or worse not a crime, and is practiced by the very same people currently crying for Kiwi Farms' deletion.
  - spurgelaurels 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms I think maybe you should read this.
    - ALittleLight 4y ago
      One side of a disagreement getting to write the relevant Wikipedia page has some trade-offs. On the one hand, the dominant side can cast the argument however they want. On the other hand, they can't really make it look like a fair or dispassionate accounting.
    - _vvaw 4y ago
      And I think you should read this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32712037 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32712037 And this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32728365 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32728365 The fight over Kiwi Farms' Wikipedia page is intense. Keffals, a central figure to this story described in the second link above, is now quoting the Wikipedia page as fact because it quotes an NBC News story which quotes... Keffals. If you don't rely strictly on primary sources it's impossible to determine truth in this situation.
      - 4y ago
Febra33 4y ago
Your argument looks like blatant self victimisation. Kiwi Farms is involved in the suicides and endangerement of multiple people. I really don't see the coherence in your arguments here.
- bioemerl 4y ago
  If they are doing something criminal, let the courts set them out with an established procedure and a a group of informed jurors instead of mob rule.
  - Febra33 4y ago
    There's no mob rule. A private company decided to stop servicing that filth because it would hurt their profits. There's nothing freer than this.
    - bioemerl 4y ago
      This is mob rule, private companies do nothing but appeal to whatever they have to in order to make money, and to rely on them for control of our basic ability to have a platform is incredibly harmful and you should not support it. There are some powers which should not be in the hands of corporate executives, this is one of them. There are also times that it wouldn't be mob rule, those times should be shareholder rule, which is liable to be even more harmful and even less transparent.
      - Febra33 4y ago
        So you're telling me that companies shouldn't have full control over their operations and products and that the government should limit them in that aspect?
        bioemerl 4y ago
        I think that systems like cloudflare should be treated partially as utilities and required to provide services as if they were one, because that's what they are. There are lots of times that companies find themselves in a position of such responsibility and power that they can no longer be trusted to wield that responsibility and power without public oversight. My concern with this would evaporate entirely if I knew that there was some form of reasonable checks and balances against companies like cloudflare doing whatever the heck they want to do, and all it would take in the future to get a website off the internet is some mass of well connected people deciding that a site should go away. This is not an issue with the site being taken down, it's an issue with entirely unregulated power held by people who should not hold that power.

pxeger1 4y ago

(I'm inferring that your comment is supporting KiwiFarms. If this is not the case, you should probably re-word it.) > salem witch trials du jour so fervently pushed by certain groups of people Hunting trans people and pushing them to suicide sounds like much more of a witch trial to me. > forcing their narrative and banning any discourse that they don't like Telling to people to kill themselves is "discourse" that we merely "don't like"? > put stop to this madness Even if you're a raging transphobe, how can you possibly think being trans is more madness than pushing people to kill themselves?

neonsunset 4y ago
Your response is a perfect demonstration of the issue at hand and the choice of words is driven by a desire to silence the people who question the logic of a tribe you perceive yourself a part of: nothing in my post indicated support of some narrow part of the spectrum of opinions yet you make an assumption and go through with accusation anyway. As Paul Graham himself put this, anyone suspected of supporting yellowists is to be investigated for missteps and once one is found to the trial they go.
ratsmack 4y ago
Supporting Kiwi Farms right to exist is not the same as supporting the content.
- Febra33 4y ago
  It has a right to exist. CF has the right to choose their clients. I really don't see your problem. If they want to exist, they can host themselves and/or use TOR.
  - 650 4y ago
    If they want to exist they can roll their own framework, host themselves, make their own chips, mine their own ore.
- borski 4y ago
  You’re right, but they’re related. KF has a right to exist. But if they want to be part of society at large, society owes them no great debt; they are welcome to remain insular and talk about their bullshit amongst themselves, or even host their own CDN mitigation service if nobody wants to work with them, but nobody is required to give them a platform to spew their odious content.
- pxeger1 4y ago
  KF has a responsibility to abide by the law. By extension, it has a responsibility to ensure its users do not use it to break the law. I support KF's right to exist, but not in this state.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

spurgelaurels 4y ago

You do realize that this wasn't simply about "discourse", yes? This was about active doxxing and swatting of real living human beings. Being transphobic might be just an (ignorant) opinion, but actively working to harm people needs to be shut right down.

_vvaw 4y ago
SWATing and harassment is explicitly prohibited on Kiwi Farms, and the site owner aggressively removes such content. "Doxing" is for better or worse not a crime, and is practiced by the very same people currently crying for Kiwi Farms' deletion.
- spurgelaurels 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms I think maybe you should read this.
  - ALittleLight 4y ago
    One side of a disagreement getting to write the relevant Wikipedia page has some trade-offs. On the one hand, the dominant side can cast the argument however they want. On the other hand, they can't really make it look like a fair or dispassionate accounting.
  - _vvaw 4y ago
    And I think you should read this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32712037 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32712037 And this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32728365 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32728365 The fight over Kiwi Farms' Wikipedia page is intense. Keffals, a central figure to this story described in the second link above, is now quoting the Wikipedia page as fact because it quotes an NBC News story which quotes... Keffals. If you don't rely strictly on primary sources it's impossible to determine truth in this situation.
    - 4y ago

Febra33 4y ago

Your argument looks like blatant self victimisation. Kiwi Farms is involved in the suicides and endangerement of multiple people. I really don't see the coherence in your arguments here.

bioemerl 4y ago
If they are doing something criminal, let the courts set them out with an established procedure and a a group of informed jurors instead of mob rule.
- Febra33 4y ago
  There's no mob rule. A private company decided to stop servicing that filth because it would hurt their profits. There's nothing freer than this.
  - bioemerl 4y ago
    This is mob rule, private companies do nothing but appeal to whatever they have to in order to make money, and to rely on them for control of our basic ability to have a platform is incredibly harmful and you should not support it. There are some powers which should not be in the hands of corporate executives, this is one of them. There are also times that it wouldn't be mob rule, those times should be shareholder rule, which is liable to be even more harmful and even less transparent.
    - Febra33 4y ago
      So you're telling me that companies shouldn't have full control over their operations and products and that the government should limit them in that aspect?
      - bioemerl 4y ago
        I think that systems like cloudflare should be treated partially as utilities and required to provide services as if they were one, because that's what they are. There are lots of times that companies find themselves in a position of such responsibility and power that they can no longer be trusted to wield that responsibility and power without public oversight. My concern with this would evaporate entirely if I knew that there was some form of reasonable checks and balances against companies like cloudflare doing whatever the heck they want to do, and all it would take in the future to get a website off the internet is some mass of well connected people deciding that a site should go away. This is not an issue with the site being taken down, it's an issue with entirely unregulated power held by people who should not hold that power.