5 ms·

Trans woman here, both 1) access to HRT for minors and 2) HRT without medical/parental gatekeeping are widely supported positions in the trans community (which

Trans woman here, both 1) access to HRT for minors and 2) HRT without medical/parental gatekeeping are widely supported positions in the trans community (which I also endorse). Rationale for 1. It's widely supported by the medical community and by scientific studies, and helps improve the quality of life of people with gender dysphoria. Rationale for 2. Gatekeeping traditionally consist in telling a psychiatrist anecdotal personal stories about your gender expressions and behaviors. Some psychiatrist hold sexist attitudes, and can prolong your gatekeeping or refuse treatment if you don't tell them a nice tradwife story (always known, only attracted to boys (if MtF) or girls (if FtM), always played with [gendered toy]). This even has the opposite effect of not wanting to talk with them about genuine doubts, since they can deny you HRT if they don't like your adherence to sex stereotypes. In the end the trans person themself is more qualified to know whether they would like their bodies to be more masculine or feminine. (EDIT: added rationales)

pclmulqdq 4y ago
I also read a lot of the kiwifarms thread after this latest news, and it seems like there are a lot of trans people on that thread, so at least a slice of the trans community disagrees. This may be a popular position among trans activists and the Twitter crowd, though.
donkarma 4y ago
pc86 4y ago
What is the difference between "medical gatekeeping" and requiring a prescription? Because over-the-counter hormone therapy (regardless of the intent or reasoning behind it) seems like an all around bad idea.
- antiufo 4y ago
  Nothing bad per se in requiring a prescription. What I'm talking about is the multiple psychologist/psychiatrist sessions where they get to decide whether you are allowed to start HRT mostly based on your adherence to sex stereotypes.
- systemvoltage 4y ago
objclxt 4y ago
> HRT without medical/parental gatekeeping are widely supported positions in the trans community It's a widely supported position of the trans community that minors should have access to home-made HRT without any quality control or regulation? Because honestly, I feel like if you're taking hormone replacement therapy you want some kind of guarantee of quality.
- antiufo 4y ago
  This was the first time I heard about "homemade" HRT. But proper HRT can be easily bought on online pharmacies. An index of them is available for example at https://diyhrt.wiki/ https://diyhrt.wiki/ or https://hrt.cafe/ https://hrt.cafe/
- bitwize 4y ago
  For some trans people, the alternative is no gender-affirming care at all, which tends to lead to bad health outcomes (e.g., suicide). To be trans is to live on the edge of the law and on the very cutting edge of biopunk medical science. A lot of shit is off-off-off-label, where there are no guarantees of quality, but something is better than nothing which is what you'd get if it were up to your parents and doctors.
  - YorkshireSeason 4y ago
    The alternative is the come to terms with one's sexuality, just like everybody else. In other words, in most relevant cases here, to come out as a gay man.
    - cauefcr 4y ago
      "Can you just not be confusing and ignore what you want to do with your life? That would mean the world to me." This is what you said.
good-point-sir 4y ago
- bioemerl 4y ago
  I don't think either of you are correct. Doctors and parents should be involved in every single one of these kids decisions, but if the doctors and parents are involved, it's their job to care for their kids. If they decide their kids need to be helped in some way, they should be free to make that decision. Doctor oversight for the medical industry already exists and is already a very strong structure, and it will adapt over time to keep kids safe from malpractice. You are probably misinformed relative to the experts on these issues. It is my belief that unregulated handing of medicine to kids is not good. Especially having seen how some of these groups on discord work. I also think that barring kids from potentially helpful medicine is also not good. You will genuinely hurt people by doing this by denying them care that could save their lives. This is a place where I think pragmatism is best, and you need to set your biases aside as much as you possibly can. Leave things to the people who are involved with them everyday, and look after your own life with what you see.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
flumpcakes 4y ago
Anyone (anyone regardless of anything) who said they believed giving any medicine to a child without parental consent, even implying subterfuge, to me is extremely dangerous and I would pull my child out of any activity/school/club if there was someone there with those views in a responsible role of the children. For that reason I think attitudes like this do more harm for the trans community than good. If I knew a trans person with these views I would do everything possible to avoid any contact with them and my children.
- antiufo 4y ago
  Abortion is another example where minors are allowed to make decisions by themselves. Which is particularly important when you have politically heated topics like these, where the medical literature and your average parent often hold very different views.
  - flumpcakes 4y ago
    Yes, a medical abortion approved and administered by medical professionals. I don't think the medical literature suggests taking homemade drugs from strangers on the internet.
    - antiufo 4y ago
      When the political reality of the place where you live influences that, I definitely support gray-market solutions. Just like https://abort.lol/ https://abort.lol/ exists for abortion.
      - tsimionescu 4y ago
        You and people like you truly have no idea how much harm you are causing, do you? It is utterly irresponsible to encourage anyone, but a child more than anything, to take this type of medication without medical supervision. Consequences can be extraordinarily dire. I will refrain from name-calling, but I have never been as angry or disgusted by anyone else on this site. Edit: I want to make it clear that the dire consequences I'm talking about are NOT feminization/masculinization, nor even common complications of either such as infertility. Taking uncontrolled doses of hormones, at irregular times, without any kind of tracking of the quantitative effects (blood tests to determine effective levels), especially for someone undergoing puberty, can easily lead to hormone overdoses that can seriously harm pretty much any organ in the body - including at the very least the heart, kidneys and liver. Testosterone and estrogen have many many effects in the body outside of determining sexual characteristics.
nathanaldensr 4y ago
Your post, even with its edits, is gross. However, I must thank you for providing your words so that I may show my own two children about the dangers of belief systems such as yours.
- theossuary 4y ago
  Go for it. As a trans person who grew up with abusive parents who beat me instead of helping me with my gender identity, I wish I'd known of a way to start hrt sooner so I don't have to suffer now as a non-passing trans person. But as they say, the cruelty is the point.
YorkshireSeason 4y ago
irthomasthomas 4y ago
tsimionescu 4y ago
Well, you're just wrong then, and the behavior you are encouraging is literally illegal in most of the world. And beyond legality, kids self-administering HRT with neither parental nor medical supervision is a truly scary thought. It is certain to leave most with significant health issues, that no amount of good will will help them solve.
- antiufo 4y ago
  What is supported by medical literature and law/bureaucracy are not necessarily aligned. Abortion also faces this problem. Ideally yes you would want a GP to prescribe you HRT. But if in the place where you currently live this is not possible without years of gatekeeping, or parents have veto power, gray-market solutions are the next best possible alternative.
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    I very much doubt you'll find any piece of medical literature supporting the idea that it is better for a child to self-medicate on complex drugs like HRT then it is to wait until they are legally able to ignore their idiotic parents and move out to a state that actually cares about their well-being and happiness. Not to mention, HRT is not at all recommended for children, puberty blockers are. I fully support the right of children to receive puberty blockers to help them achieve a smooth transition when they are old enough to fully understand the consequences. I bemoan states and parents that seek to harm trans children by refusing them access to this type of treatment, and others. But slef-medicating as a child is in absolutely no way an acceptable replacement. Being a non-passing trans adult, as bad as it is, is likely to be much much better than the harms you expose yourself to by accidentally overdosing on hormones as a child.
spoonjim 4y ago

pclmulqdq 4y ago

I also read a lot of the kiwifarms thread after this latest news, and it seems like there are a lot of trans people on that thread, so at least a slice of the trans community disagrees. This may be a popular position among trans activists and the Twitter crowd, though.

donkarma 4y ago

pc86 4y ago

What is the difference between "medical gatekeeping" and requiring a prescription? Because over-the-counter hormone therapy (regardless of the intent or reasoning behind it) seems like an all around bad idea.

antiufo 4y ago
Nothing bad per se in requiring a prescription. What I'm talking about is the multiple psychologist/psychiatrist sessions where they get to decide whether you are allowed to start HRT mostly based on your adherence to sex stereotypes.
systemvoltage 4y ago

objclxt 4y ago

> HRT without medical/parental gatekeeping are widely supported positions in the trans community It's a widely supported position of the trans community that minors should have access to home-made HRT without any quality control or regulation? Because honestly, I feel like if you're taking hormone replacement therapy you want some kind of guarantee of quality.

antiufo 4y ago
This was the first time I heard about "homemade" HRT. But proper HRT can be easily bought on online pharmacies. An index of them is available for example at https://diyhrt.wiki/ https://diyhrt.wiki/ or https://hrt.cafe/ https://hrt.cafe/
bitwize 4y ago
For some trans people, the alternative is no gender-affirming care at all, which tends to lead to bad health outcomes (e.g., suicide). To be trans is to live on the edge of the law and on the very cutting edge of biopunk medical science. A lot of shit is off-off-off-label, where there are no guarantees of quality, but something is better than nothing which is what you'd get if it were up to your parents and doctors.
- YorkshireSeason 4y ago
  The alternative is the come to terms with one's sexuality, just like everybody else. In other words, in most relevant cases here, to come out as a gay man.
  - cauefcr 4y ago
    "Can you just not be confusing and ignore what you want to do with your life? That would mean the world to me." This is what you said.

good-point-sir 4y ago

bioemerl 4y ago
I don't think either of you are correct. Doctors and parents should be involved in every single one of these kids decisions, but if the doctors and parents are involved, it's their job to care for their kids. If they decide their kids need to be helped in some way, they should be free to make that decision. Doctor oversight for the medical industry already exists and is already a very strong structure, and it will adapt over time to keep kids safe from malpractice. You are probably misinformed relative to the experts on these issues. It is my belief that unregulated handing of medicine to kids is not good. Especially having seen how some of these groups on discord work. I also think that barring kids from potentially helpful medicine is also not good. You will genuinely hurt people by doing this by denying them care that could save their lives. This is a place where I think pragmatism is best, and you need to set your biases aside as much as you possibly can. Leave things to the people who are involved with them everyday, and look after your own life with what you see.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

flumpcakes 4y ago

Anyone (anyone regardless of anything) who said they believed giving any medicine to a child without parental consent, even implying subterfuge, to me is extremely dangerous and I would pull my child out of any activity/school/club if there was someone there with those views in a responsible role of the children. For that reason I think attitudes like this do more harm for the trans community than good. If I knew a trans person with these views I would do everything possible to avoid any contact with them and my children.

antiufo 4y ago
Abortion is another example where minors are allowed to make decisions by themselves. Which is particularly important when you have politically heated topics like these, where the medical literature and your average parent often hold very different views.
- flumpcakes 4y ago
  Yes, a medical abortion approved and administered by medical professionals. I don't think the medical literature suggests taking homemade drugs from strangers on the internet.
  - antiufo 4y ago
    When the political reality of the place where you live influences that, I definitely support gray-market solutions. Just like https://abort.lol/ https://abort.lol/ exists for abortion.
    - tsimionescu 4y ago
      You and people like you truly have no idea how much harm you are causing, do you? It is utterly irresponsible to encourage anyone, but a child more than anything, to take this type of medication without medical supervision. Consequences can be extraordinarily dire. I will refrain from name-calling, but I have never been as angry or disgusted by anyone else on this site. Edit: I want to make it clear that the dire consequences I'm talking about are NOT feminization/masculinization, nor even common complications of either such as infertility. Taking uncontrolled doses of hormones, at irregular times, without any kind of tracking of the quantitative effects (blood tests to determine effective levels), especially for someone undergoing puberty, can easily lead to hormone overdoses that can seriously harm pretty much any organ in the body - including at the very least the heart, kidneys and liver. Testosterone and estrogen have many many effects in the body outside of determining sexual characteristics.

nathanaldensr 4y ago

Your post, even with its edits, is gross. However, I must thank you for providing your words so that I may show my own two children about the dangers of belief systems such as yours.

theossuary 4y ago
Go for it. As a trans person who grew up with abusive parents who beat me instead of helping me with my gender identity, I wish I'd known of a way to start hrt sooner so I don't have to suffer now as a non-passing trans person. But as they say, the cruelty is the point.

YorkshireSeason 4y ago

irthomasthomas 4y ago

tsimionescu 4y ago

Well, you're just wrong then, and the behavior you are encouraging is literally illegal in most of the world. And beyond legality, kids self-administering HRT with neither parental nor medical supervision is a truly scary thought. It is certain to leave most with significant health issues, that no amount of good will will help them solve.

antiufo 4y ago
What is supported by medical literature and law/bureaucracy are not necessarily aligned. Abortion also faces this problem. Ideally yes you would want a GP to prescribe you HRT. But if in the place where you currently live this is not possible without years of gatekeeping, or parents have veto power, gray-market solutions are the next best possible alternative.
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  I very much doubt you'll find any piece of medical literature supporting the idea that it is better for a child to self-medicate on complex drugs like HRT then it is to wait until they are legally able to ignore their idiotic parents and move out to a state that actually cares about their well-being and happiness. Not to mention, HRT is not at all recommended for children, puberty blockers are. I fully support the right of children to receive puberty blockers to help them achieve a smooth transition when they are old enough to fully understand the consequences. I bemoan states and parents that seek to harm trans children by refusing them access to this type of treatment, and others. But slef-medicating as a child is in absolutely no way an acceptable replacement. Being a non-passing trans adult, as bad as it is, is likely to be much much better than the harms you expose yourself to by accidentally overdosing on hormones as a child.

spoonjim 4y ago