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Even if that were true, and I think it's pretty doubtful to just attribute a suicide to some people who made fun of or harassed the deceased, it's a criminal or

Even if that were true, and I think it's pretty doubtful to just attribute a suicide to some people who made fun of or harassed the deceased, it's a criminal or civil matter. If people on that forum committed a crime, let them face the legal penalties. Why should the website be made persona non grata by Internet companies? How many more are dead from activities on Facebook, Instagram, etc? Why is it that big businesses see no punishment for vastly larger crimes and small communities are harshly dealt with?

therouwboat 4y ago
So how many more are dead from Facebook etc?
- Deathcrow 4y ago
  Facebook has probably killed more people with face detection and name tagging in photos alone.
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    If even only half the material presented in "The social dilemma" was credible, Meta have absolutely been knowingly responsible for more harm than KF. I don't know what the right solution is.
- ALittleLight 4y ago
  It's not countable, but vastly more than three. There are civil wars and ethnic cleansing that get organized and supported on Facebook (e.g. Ethiopia and Myanmar). Gang violence and mass murder also get spread on Facebook. Nevermind the harassment and bullying that happens on Facebook, which is, of course, orders of magnitude more than what goes on on KF. It's just not very sensible to think that big companies care about a few people dying because of a small forum when they demonstrably do not care about many, many, more people dying because of a big forum. It seems way more plausible to me that big tech companies work together to kill small social media than that they have some secret ethic which compels them to care about small harms over big harms.
  - 1ris 4y ago
    Intent is the key ingredient to crime (or other behaviours society does not tolerate). You totally ignore this.
    - ALittleLight 4y ago
      Oh, I see. Thank you for clearing this up for me. When big, rich, powerful companies get people killed they didn't intend to, so, actually, no harm done. When big, rich, powerful companies accuse a small community of getting someone killed obviously they did intend to do it and so they need to be shut down. Very illuminating!
      - therouwboat 4y ago
        Yeah, when you intentionally cause harm and even drive people to suicide, its worse than unintentionally causing harm.
      - clucas 4y ago
        Can't you engage the point in good faith? Of course intent matters! If you have a fleet of trucks and occasionally one of your drivers gets in an accident, that's way different than if you have a fleet going out there running people off the road. I think you may have good point hiding in there (maybe "Facebook may not do it intentionally, but they've been so negligent that..."), but it's lost in the dripping sarcasm. The point you're replying to wasn't that ridiculous.
        ALittleLight 4y ago
        I would say that I did engage in good faith. I mean the argument I'm making and I'm making my arguments the way I feel is best. It is, of course, completely ridiculous to think that "intent" separates Facebook and KiwiFarms. Facebook doesn't intend to cause civil wars, genocides, spree killers, gang violence, body dismorphia, self-harm, harassment, and suicide. Facebook intends to connect people so that they can develop a social network and monetize the social network and they are willing to break a few eggs to make that omelette. You might as well say that it is the color of Mark Zuckerberg's shoes that matters as say it is Facebook's intent. No, obviously, what matters is the bad stuff and the people harmed. It's not like any of those people are less dead because of Facebook's intentions. If Facebook had terrible intentions and excellent outcomes that would be a much better world. The other problem with saying intent is what matters is that the people who make this argument also make some kind of magical mind reading claim that they know the intentions of others. "Intent is what matters, and I know the intentions of KiwiFarms! They are bad!" Just save everyone some time and explain that you know KiwiFarms is bad and that is why they must be destroyed. KiwiFarms is bad because they intended to get people killed. No, there is no evidence for that. And yes, there is plenty of evidence against that in the form of trying to get people hurt being against the rules and moderation of the site. No, there was no police or legal action against KiwiFarms for the crimes we "know" they were committing - but all that is beside the point. We know their intent! It is bad and they must be removed!
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- mrweasel 4y ago
  At least seven. I did a quick search on DuckDuckGo, because I remembered at least one suicide covered in Danish media. The first page alone yielded seven different teenagers from Ireland, United Kingdom, Canada and Danmark. So just guessing here, but Meta properties alone must have killed thousands of teenagers.
cauefcr 4y ago
KF was made _for_ harassment, that's very different.
- ratsmack 4y ago
  If you know that for a fact, maybe you can elaborate.
  - cauefcr 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms It doesn't seem a very controversial statement.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  Facebook was made for sexual harassment. It was originally made so that Zucc and his friends could rate the girls at Harvard.
- borski 4y ago
  ‘ratsmack: harassment was explicitly their stated goal from the very beginning. The very name is a play on the first person they decided to go after (and why the forum formed).
- borski 4y ago
  Even if Facebook were made for harassment (which it wasn’t; you’re thinking of the website pre-FB), they would have since evolved and given that up. KF never evolved.
- baud147258 4y ago
  dunno, maybe I didn't browse the 'right' threads for that, but those that I read were just making fun of someone (or a group of people)
anigbrowl 4y ago
Why is it that big businesses see no punishment for vastly larger crimes and small communities are harshly dealt with? Because they have more resources and it's easier to take down a small target than a large one. I am more than fine with Zuckerberg and others being held to account for harms negligently or callously inflicted by Facebook.
favorited 4y ago
> I think it's pretty doubtful to just attribute a suicide to some people who made fun of or harassed the deceased Near literally said he was committing suicide due to the abuse from Kiwi Farms. If you're doubtful, it's because you're willfully ignorant. https://twitter.com/near_koukai/status/1408986839743037448 https://twitter.com/near_koukai/status/1408986839743037448
- ALittleLight 4y ago
  Not even the tweet you linked says this. The person says they have been depressed and mocked their entire life and that they have tried therapy and medication and that it did not work. That seems much more like a depressed person driven to suicide than a forum being responsible for responsible for their death.
  - that_guy_iain 4y ago
    He did go on to say that if the KiwiFarms founder/owner/whatever had been more compassionate he would have carried on. https://twitter.com/near_koukai/status/1408986855014428672 https://twitter.com/near_koukai/status/1408986855014428672 It could be guilting those who harrassed and bullied him. But it's probably just highlighting how bad it was for him. To me, it's pretty clear KiwiFarms were a major contributing factor to their sucide.
    - ALittleLight 4y ago
      To my knowledge there was a thread with ~13 pages of comments making fun of near, but nothing threatening or harmful to his life. So far as I know the true identity of near was never known - so it's not even like the mean internet comments were intruding on his life. Can you link to the mean things (or an archive of them) that the KiwiFarms people did or said that drove near to suicide? If not, can you summarize the things they said or did?
  - favorited 4y ago
    It literally says, "Kiwi Farms has made the harassment orders of magnitude worse." By all means, continue to enjoy your willful ignorance, it must be nice. One of Near's friends just tweeted a message where they had begged, "do something about this site already" the day they killed themself. Nier committed suicide because of KF harassment. https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1567014389282385922 https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1567014389282385922

therouwboat 4y ago

So how many more are dead from Facebook etc?

Deathcrow 4y ago
Facebook has probably killed more people with face detection and name tagging in photos alone.
- wizofaus 4y ago
  If even only half the material presented in "The social dilemma" was credible, Meta have absolutely been knowingly responsible for more harm than KF. I don't know what the right solution is.
ALittleLight 4y ago
It's not countable, but vastly more than three. There are civil wars and ethnic cleansing that get organized and supported on Facebook (e.g. Ethiopia and Myanmar). Gang violence and mass murder also get spread on Facebook. Nevermind the harassment and bullying that happens on Facebook, which is, of course, orders of magnitude more than what goes on on KF. It's just not very sensible to think that big companies care about a few people dying because of a small forum when they demonstrably do not care about many, many, more people dying because of a big forum. It seems way more plausible to me that big tech companies work together to kill small social media than that they have some secret ethic which compels them to care about small harms over big harms.
- 1ris 4y ago
  Intent is the key ingredient to crime (or other behaviours society does not tolerate). You totally ignore this.
  - ALittleLight 4y ago
    Oh, I see. Thank you for clearing this up for me. When big, rich, powerful companies get people killed they didn't intend to, so, actually, no harm done. When big, rich, powerful companies accuse a small community of getting someone killed obviously they did intend to do it and so they need to be shut down. Very illuminating!
    - therouwboat 4y ago
      Yeah, when you intentionally cause harm and even drive people to suicide, its worse than unintentionally causing harm.
    - clucas 4y ago
      Can't you engage the point in good faith? Of course intent matters! If you have a fleet of trucks and occasionally one of your drivers gets in an accident, that's way different than if you have a fleet going out there running people off the road. I think you may have good point hiding in there (maybe "Facebook may not do it intentionally, but they've been so negligent that..."), but it's lost in the dripping sarcasm. The point you're replying to wasn't that ridiculous.
      - ALittleLight 4y ago
        I would say that I did engage in good faith. I mean the argument I'm making and I'm making my arguments the way I feel is best. It is, of course, completely ridiculous to think that "intent" separates Facebook and KiwiFarms. Facebook doesn't intend to cause civil wars, genocides, spree killers, gang violence, body dismorphia, self-harm, harassment, and suicide. Facebook intends to connect people so that they can develop a social network and monetize the social network and they are willing to break a few eggs to make that omelette. You might as well say that it is the color of Mark Zuckerberg's shoes that matters as say it is Facebook's intent. No, obviously, what matters is the bad stuff and the people harmed. It's not like any of those people are less dead because of Facebook's intentions. If Facebook had terrible intentions and excellent outcomes that would be a much better world. The other problem with saying intent is what matters is that the people who make this argument also make some kind of magical mind reading claim that they know the intentions of others. "Intent is what matters, and I know the intentions of KiwiFarms! They are bad!" Just save everyone some time and explain that you know KiwiFarms is bad and that is why they must be destroyed. KiwiFarms is bad because they intended to get people killed. No, there is no evidence for that. And yes, there is plenty of evidence against that in the form of trying to get people hurt being against the rules and moderation of the site. No, there was no police or legal action against KiwiFarms for the crimes we "know" they were committing - but all that is beside the point. We know their intent! It is bad and they must be removed!
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mrweasel 4y ago
At least seven. I did a quick search on DuckDuckGo, because I remembered at least one suicide covered in Danish media. The first page alone yielded seven different teenagers from Ireland, United Kingdom, Canada and Danmark. So just guessing here, but Meta properties alone must have killed thousands of teenagers.

cauefcr 4y ago

KF was made _for_ harassment, that's very different.

ratsmack 4y ago
If you know that for a fact, maybe you can elaborate.
- cauefcr 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms It doesn't seem a very controversial statement.
pclmulqdq 4y ago
Facebook was made for sexual harassment. It was originally made so that Zucc and his friends could rate the girls at Harvard.
borski 4y ago
‘ratsmack: harassment was explicitly their stated goal from the very beginning. The very name is a play on the first person they decided to go after (and why the forum formed).
borski 4y ago
Even if Facebook were made for harassment (which it wasn’t; you’re thinking of the website pre-FB), they would have since evolved and given that up. KF never evolved.
baud147258 4y ago
dunno, maybe I didn't browse the 'right' threads for that, but those that I read were just making fun of someone (or a group of people)

anigbrowl 4y ago

Why is it that big businesses see no punishment for vastly larger crimes and small communities are harshly dealt with? Because they have more resources and it's easier to take down a small target than a large one. I am more than fine with Zuckerberg and others being held to account for harms negligently or callously inflicted by Facebook.

favorited 4y ago

> I think it's pretty doubtful to just attribute a suicide to some people who made fun of or harassed the deceased Near literally said he was committing suicide due to the abuse from Kiwi Farms. If you're doubtful, it's because you're willfully ignorant. https://twitter.com/near_koukai/status/1408986839743037448 https://twitter.com/near_koukai/status/1408986839743037448

ALittleLight 4y ago
Not even the tweet you linked says this. The person says they have been depressed and mocked their entire life and that they have tried therapy and medication and that it did not work. That seems much more like a depressed person driven to suicide than a forum being responsible for responsible for their death.
- that_guy_iain 4y ago
  He did go on to say that if the KiwiFarms founder/owner/whatever had been more compassionate he would have carried on. https://twitter.com/near_koukai/status/1408986855014428672 https://twitter.com/near_koukai/status/1408986855014428672 It could be guilting those who harrassed and bullied him. But it's probably just highlighting how bad it was for him. To me, it's pretty clear KiwiFarms were a major contributing factor to their sucide.
  - ALittleLight 4y ago
    To my knowledge there was a thread with ~13 pages of comments making fun of near, but nothing threatening or harmful to his life. So far as I know the true identity of near was never known - so it's not even like the mean internet comments were intruding on his life. Can you link to the mean things (or an archive of them) that the KiwiFarms people did or said that drove near to suicide? If not, can you summarize the things they said or did?
- favorited 4y ago
  It literally says, "Kiwi Farms has made the harassment orders of magnitude worse." By all means, continue to enjoy your willful ignorance, it must be nice. One of Near's friends just tweeted a message where they had begged, "do something about this site already" the day they killed themself. Nier committed suicide because of KF harassment. https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1567014389282385922 https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1567014389282385922