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Or wood-fired, surprisingly common still in parts of Europe. Related, but sad news is e.g. in Hungary, they removed protection from basically all forests to be

Or wood-fired, surprisingly common still in parts of Europe. Related, but sad news is e.g. in Hungary, they removed protection from basically all forests to be used as firewood. We will pay dearly for this hubris. Can you imagine chopping up Redwood national park for firewood? This is what is happening currently in Europe.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Same in rich Austria. I saw many apartments around the million euro ballpark in the older posh city center buildings, that are still heated by firewood stoves and many countryside houses are still heated by oil. Heat pumps? Ha! Never saw them anywhere around here. It all feels incredibly dirty and inefficient to me for such a rich country.
- tpmx 4y ago
  Well, oil is cheaper than electricity now*. *) Depending on time and location of course, but it's the case surprisingly often. As a Swede, the more I learn about about how central Europe has been heating their homes the more disgusted I become. Like, the way e.g. Germany seems to think of burning gas as "clean". I mean, maybe compared to coal, but... you shut down nuclear plants with a plan to replace with (Russian) gas? You do understand burning this causes CO2 emissions, right? That was the many-billion-Euro German green energy revolution your environmentalists wouldn't stop talking about a decade ago? And now our electricity in southern Sweden (which is what we generally use to heat our houses, in contrast to most of Europe, since it used to be very cheap and clean here, just a year ago. Most use an air-to-air/water heat pump or three) is insane costly, because of a combination of idiotic leftist politicans/voters also shutting down nuclear plants while at the same time building export power connections to Europe. It's like everyone is doing the opposite of what's sane. /rant over
  - adrianN 4y ago
    Germany actually didn't plan to replace nuclear with gas, it wanted to replace nuclear with renewables+gas (later to be replaced by electrolysis). It was of course unfortunate for the climate to shut down the nuclear plants before shutting down the lignite plants.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >building export power connections to Europe Those export connections are there to benefit Germany industry who basically shut down some domestic production, because "green", and is instead importing its deficit from the others, raising the prices for everyone. Portugal and Spain together are the only ones not connected to the shared grid and now have the cheapest energy prices in Europe, with Germany mumbling about it that this should change. Well done guys.
    - tpmx 4y ago
      > Portugal and Spain are the only ones not connected to the shared grid (More believable.) Source?
      - ricardobayes 4y ago
        We are connected, but were allowed to detach electricity prices from natural gas prices. It was dubbed the 'iberian exception' at the time.
        tpmx 4y ago
        That would be something us in the north would need right now. Most house owners need like 1500-2000 kWh/month in the 6 cold winter months (november-april). With projected prices, we're looking at average family heating costs around EUR 1000-1500/month for 6 months. It will be extremely tough for homes with a single income. (That's about all of the average monthly pension.) At the moment this is leading to a quite a lot of resentment towards the EU (and Germany) here amongst people.
        ricardobayes 4y ago
        This comment reads weird after France just vetoed again Spain's proposal to export natural gas to Germany through France - the medgas pipeline.
        tpmx 4y ago
kuboble 4y ago
Though there is a sense of hypocrisy here. Europe used to be a one big jungle and the western Europe was first to chop it all and build their wealth on it. If now we regret it then those who did chop off all their forests should share part of their wealth if they don't want others to follow suit.
d0mine 4y ago
Europe essentially banned cheap energy sources. The winter is coming. Despite global warming, somebody (starts with U, ends with S) will make a pretty penny. It will teach those EU socialists (healthcare, education, functional public transport) how to do business. Fixing somebody's problem that you yourself created--Godfather would be proud.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  > Europe essentially banned cheap energy sources. The winter is coming. Despite global warming, somebody (starts with U, ends with S) will make a pretty penny. Ah yes, the country of Urussias. Or perhaps you mean Unorways. Or Ualgerias? Or Usaudi Arabias? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_policy_of_the_European_Union#/media/File:Who_supplies_Europe?_The_global_concerns_of_EU_energy_imports.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_policy_of_the_European_...
  - finiteseries 4y ago
    That graphic needs to be updated to reflect an entirely different new world, it’s from 2016, the same year the US lifted a 40 year old ban on oil & gas exports. It’s now the largest LNG exporter in the world in 2022, though that hardly benefits the country directly in terms of making a pretty penny.
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago
      > LNG LNG only accounts for a small portion of the EU natural gas imports, most of their gas is imported in gaseous form. Main extra-EU partners for imports of natural gas, 2021: Russia: 39.2% Norway: 25.1% Algeria: 8.2% United States: 7.3% <-- The one you're blaming. United Kingdom: 6.5% All natural gas import, LNG and gaseous combined, only account for 24.9% of EU energy imports. In 2021, 61.8% of EU energy imports were crude oil. Main extra-EU partners for imports of petroleum oil, 2021: Russia: 24.8% Norway 9.4% United States: 8.8% <-- The one you're blaming. Libya: 8.2% Kazakhstan: 8.0% https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=EU_imports_of_energy_products_-_recent_developments#Overview https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...
MichaelCollins 4y ago
What would you have Hungarians do? The comment above yours seems to suggest that it's ecologically irresponsible to live in hot climates where AC is required, but also ecologically irresponsible to live in cold climates where heating is required. Hungary has a temperate climate, but the summers there still get dangerously hot, and the winters dangerously cold. Why did Hungary remove protection for forests to allow people to collect firewood? Presumably because they think it's necessary. So what would you have them do instead, abandon their country?
- galdosdi 4y ago
  > Presumably because they think it's necessary. For people who have studied the history of how countries and their leadership make decisions, even just superficially (eg, you've followed the news for 20 years), this is actually a very strange presumption. It is historically just as plausible that it's not thought necessary for society as a whole, but is simply profitable for some special interest, such as (just an example, not an actual suggestion) a large forest land owner. I thought this was obvious, unless one is very young still or one has never taken any interest in history or current events.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    How do you think Hungarians should heat their homes this winter? Not, 'What could they have done five years ago?' or 'What could they do five years from now?' I want to know how Hungarians can heat their homes 5 months from now. That's the question the government of Hungary is forced to address.
    - jjav 4y ago
      Since burning forests to heat homes is not sustainable nor renewable (at a timescale that makes sense), it's not a rational solution. What will they do 5 years from now (or however many years that all forests are gone)?
      - MichaelCollins 4y ago
moistly 4y ago
Y’all gonna Easter Island yourselves

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

Same in rich Austria. I saw many apartments around the million euro ballpark in the older posh city center buildings, that are still heated by firewood stoves and many countryside houses are still heated by oil. Heat pumps? Ha! Never saw them anywhere around here. It all feels incredibly dirty and inefficient to me for such a rich country.

tpmx 4y ago
Well, oil is cheaper than electricity now*. *) Depending on time and location of course, but it's the case surprisingly often. As a Swede, the more I learn about about how central Europe has been heating their homes the more disgusted I become. Like, the way e.g. Germany seems to think of burning gas as "clean". I mean, maybe compared to coal, but... you shut down nuclear plants with a plan to replace with (Russian) gas? You do understand burning this causes CO2 emissions, right? That was the many-billion-Euro German green energy revolution your environmentalists wouldn't stop talking about a decade ago? And now our electricity in southern Sweden (which is what we generally use to heat our houses, in contrast to most of Europe, since it used to be very cheap and clean here, just a year ago. Most use an air-to-air/water heat pump or three) is insane costly, because of a combination of idiotic leftist politicans/voters also shutting down nuclear plants while at the same time building export power connections to Europe. It's like everyone is doing the opposite of what's sane. /rant over
- adrianN 4y ago
  Germany actually didn't plan to replace nuclear with gas, it wanted to replace nuclear with renewables+gas (later to be replaced by electrolysis). It was of course unfortunate for the climate to shut down the nuclear plants before shutting down the lignite plants.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >building export power connections to Europe Those export connections are there to benefit Germany industry who basically shut down some domestic production, because "green", and is instead importing its deficit from the others, raising the prices for everyone. Portugal and Spain together are the only ones not connected to the shared grid and now have the cheapest energy prices in Europe, with Germany mumbling about it that this should change. Well done guys.
  - tpmx 4y ago
    > Portugal and Spain are the only ones not connected to the shared grid (More believable.) Source?
    - ricardobayes 4y ago
      We are connected, but were allowed to detach electricity prices from natural gas prices. It was dubbed the 'iberian exception' at the time.
      - tpmx 4y ago
        That would be something us in the north would need right now. Most house owners need like 1500-2000 kWh/month in the 6 cold winter months (november-april). With projected prices, we're looking at average family heating costs around EUR 1000-1500/month for 6 months. It will be extremely tough for homes with a single income. (That's about all of the average monthly pension.) At the moment this is leading to a quite a lot of resentment towards the EU (and Germany) here amongst people.
        ricardobayes 4y ago
        This comment reads weird after France just vetoed again Spain's proposal to export natural gas to Germany through France - the medgas pipeline.
        tpmx 4y ago

kuboble 4y ago

Though there is a sense of hypocrisy here. Europe used to be a one big jungle and the western Europe was first to chop it all and build their wealth on it. If now we regret it then those who did chop off all their forests should share part of their wealth if they don't want others to follow suit.

d0mine 4y ago

Europe essentially banned cheap energy sources. The winter is coming. Despite global warming, somebody (starts with U, ends with S) will make a pretty penny. It will teach those EU socialists (healthcare, education, functional public transport) how to do business. Fixing somebody's problem that you yourself created--Godfather would be proud.

MichaelCollins 4y ago
> Europe essentially banned cheap energy sources. The winter is coming. Despite global warming, somebody (starts with U, ends with S) will make a pretty penny. Ah yes, the country of Urussias. Or perhaps you mean Unorways. Or Ualgerias? Or Usaudi Arabias? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_policy_of_the_European_Union#/media/File:Who_supplies_Europe?_The_global_concerns_of_EU_energy_imports.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_policy_of_the_European_...
- finiteseries 4y ago
  That graphic needs to be updated to reflect an entirely different new world, it’s from 2016, the same year the US lifted a 40 year old ban on oil & gas exports. It’s now the largest LNG exporter in the world in 2022, though that hardly benefits the country directly in terms of making a pretty penny.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    > LNG LNG only accounts for a small portion of the EU natural gas imports, most of their gas is imported in gaseous form. Main extra-EU partners for imports of natural gas, 2021: Russia: 39.2% Norway: 25.1% Algeria: 8.2% United States: 7.3% <-- The one you're blaming. United Kingdom: 6.5% All natural gas import, LNG and gaseous combined, only account for 24.9% of EU energy imports. In 2021, 61.8% of EU energy imports were crude oil. Main extra-EU partners for imports of petroleum oil, 2021: Russia: 24.8% Norway 9.4% United States: 8.8% <-- The one you're blaming. Libya: 8.2% Kazakhstan: 8.0% https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=EU_imports_of_energy_products_-_recent_developments#Overview https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

MichaelCollins 4y ago

What would you have Hungarians do? The comment above yours seems to suggest that it's ecologically irresponsible to live in hot climates where AC is required, but also ecologically irresponsible to live in cold climates where heating is required. Hungary has a temperate climate, but the summers there still get dangerously hot, and the winters dangerously cold. Why did Hungary remove protection for forests to allow people to collect firewood? Presumably because they think it's necessary. So what would you have them do instead, abandon their country?

galdosdi 4y ago
> Presumably because they think it's necessary. For people who have studied the history of how countries and their leadership make decisions, even just superficially (eg, you've followed the news for 20 years), this is actually a very strange presumption. It is historically just as plausible that it's not thought necessary for society as a whole, but is simply profitable for some special interest, such as (just an example, not an actual suggestion) a large forest land owner. I thought this was obvious, unless one is very young still or one has never taken any interest in history or current events.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  How do you think Hungarians should heat their homes this winter? Not, 'What could they have done five years ago?' or 'What could they do five years from now?' I want to know how Hungarians can heat their homes 5 months from now. That's the question the government of Hungary is forced to address.
  - jjav 4y ago
    Since burning forests to heat homes is not sustainable nor renewable (at a timescale that makes sense), it's not a rational solution. What will they do 5 years from now (or however many years that all forests are gone)?
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago

moistly 4y ago

Y’all gonna Easter Island yourselves