4 ms·

>> A much more realistic figure is 2x That sounds well off. How much energy is required to refine fuel suitable for use in an ICE vehicle? Gas and oil fired p

>> A much more realistic figure is 2x That sounds well off. How much energy is required to refine fuel suitable for use in an ICE vehicle? Gas and oil fired power plants use a far less refined fuel. How much energy is required to get the fuel to the vehicle? Gas and oil plants are usually connected via high efficiency transport mechanisms like pipelines rather than ships or road transport. Vehicle engines are only in the region of 20-35% thermal efficiency but the average across all gas fired plants in the uk is 50% and drops to 42% for oil fired. I don’t know for sure but only 2x smells to me.

WalterBright 4y ago
See my other reply.
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  What other reply? You talk about refining. There's 10% lost in refining. X% lost in extraction and Y% lost in transmission (shipping, pipes, etc). Solar => Grid => Car Battery is less than 10% lost usually. Obviously it can vary a lot - so can oil extraction, shipping and refining... This means Solar => Grid => Car battery is >5x as efficient as Oil in ground => Pipes => Refinery => Pipes => Gas Station => Car. Once the energy is in the car, we know the BEV is 5x more efficient. We also know Solar => Car is SUBSTANTIALLY more efficient at transferring BTUs into the car than the gasoline infrastructure. In reality, it's probably closer to 10x as efficient than 2x.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Solar and wind have so far not been nearly adequate to charge existing EVs, let alone what would be necessary if we all converted to EVs. Given the reluctance to expand nuclear power, we're going to be charging EVs with fossil fuels for a long time.
    - CraigJPerry 4y ago
      >> we're going to be charging EVs with fossil fuels for a long time Even if you never used wind, solar, nuclear, hydro, etc. then you’d still be ahead in the BEV case. An oil power plant has around 42% thermal efficiency. A gas one 50%+ an ICE is only up to 35% but in the US it’s significantly lower on average. Neither of which have tailpipe emissions in populated areas unlike ICE. But we do also use wind, solar, nuclear etc as power sources for BEV.
      - aidenn0 4y ago
        And you're going to get around 80% from your EV after round trip through a battery. EVs powered by oil power plants is not a good use of energy. Fortunately, that's not what we are doing. I just wish EV proponents would stop pretending it is. Is there a term for a self-inflicted straw-man?
        CraigJPerry 4y ago
        >> around 80% from your EV after round trip through a battery I didn't follow this part, there’s an energy loss in the process of charging the battery and there’s a loss in the process of converting from dc battery to ac traction motor, but it’s well shy of 20%. The high amperage involved in both charging and discharging mean losses are low (because if they were high, you’d generate so much heat as to make the system unusable) >> EVs powered by oil power plants is not a good use of energy It’s a huge step forward from ICE. You’ve cut disease rates in the population by moving tail pipe emissions away from population centres. You’ve swapped a circa 30% efficient process for a circa 40%-60% efficient process. Not to mention the emissions benefits of LNG over Gasoline or diesel.
        WalterBright 4y ago
        It is not a 40-50% process. Coal plants run around 33%.
        CraigJPerry 4y ago

WalterBright 4y ago

See my other reply.

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
What other reply? You talk about refining. There's 10% lost in refining. X% lost in extraction and Y% lost in transmission (shipping, pipes, etc). Solar => Grid => Car Battery is less than 10% lost usually. Obviously it can vary a lot - so can oil extraction, shipping and refining... This means Solar => Grid => Car battery is >5x as efficient as Oil in ground => Pipes => Refinery => Pipes => Gas Station => Car. Once the energy is in the car, we know the BEV is 5x more efficient. We also know Solar => Car is SUBSTANTIALLY more efficient at transferring BTUs into the car than the gasoline infrastructure. In reality, it's probably closer to 10x as efficient than 2x.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Solar and wind have so far not been nearly adequate to charge existing EVs, let alone what would be necessary if we all converted to EVs. Given the reluctance to expand nuclear power, we're going to be charging EVs with fossil fuels for a long time.
  - CraigJPerry 4y ago
    >> we're going to be charging EVs with fossil fuels for a long time Even if you never used wind, solar, nuclear, hydro, etc. then you’d still be ahead in the BEV case. An oil power plant has around 42% thermal efficiency. A gas one 50%+ an ICE is only up to 35% but in the US it’s significantly lower on average. Neither of which have tailpipe emissions in populated areas unlike ICE. But we do also use wind, solar, nuclear etc as power sources for BEV.
    - aidenn0 4y ago
      And you're going to get around 80% from your EV after round trip through a battery. EVs powered by oil power plants is not a good use of energy. Fortunately, that's not what we are doing. I just wish EV proponents would stop pretending it is. Is there a term for a self-inflicted straw-man?
      - CraigJPerry 4y ago
        >> around 80% from your EV after round trip through a battery I didn't follow this part, there’s an energy loss in the process of charging the battery and there’s a loss in the process of converting from dc battery to ac traction motor, but it’s well shy of 20%. The high amperage involved in both charging and discharging mean losses are low (because if they were high, you’d generate so much heat as to make the system unusable) >> EVs powered by oil power plants is not a good use of energy It’s a huge step forward from ICE. You’ve cut disease rates in the population by moving tail pipe emissions away from population centres. You’ve swapped a circa 30% efficient process for a circa 40%-60% efficient process. Not to mention the emissions benefits of LNG over Gasoline or diesel.
        WalterBright 4y ago
        It is not a 40-50% process. Coal plants run around 33%.
        CraigJPerry 4y ago