4 ms·

I often really like this community, but I have found people here especially prone to falling to the "no-dissapointment-in-my-life-is-ever-my-fault trap". ie.: b

by tharne 4y ago

I often really like this community, but I have found people here especially prone to falling to the "no-dissapointment-in-my-life-is-ever-my-fault trap". ie.: believing that they are where they are due to vast and well-executed systemic conspiracies rather than mistakes, missteps, or a simple lack of motivation or ability. That's really unfortunate, and results in a lot of non-self-aware political bickering.

epgui 4y ago
The difference between my comment and yours is that the meritocracy trap is a real thing that has been the subject of scholarly works. Also, I speak not from a place of disappointments, but rather from a place of great privilege. I am extremely lucky to be where I am (and yes, I worked hard for it too). For an overview and references, see: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_meritocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_meritocracy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy#Meritocracy_trap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy#Meritocracy_trap
- twblalock 4y ago
  You are arguing against a strawman here. Nobody claimed we have a perfect meritocracy.
  - epgui 4y ago
    Nobody claimed this directly, but when you boil down most progressive policies to their naked objective, it comes down to redistribution in one form or another, taking from the rich and lifting everyone (most noticeably lifting the poor). Most objections to progressive policies boil down to the idea that the more fortunate people deserve what they have, and that redistribution would make less fortunate people not work as hard. In other words, the world is unfair because of "hand-wavy general incentives". I am aware that second paragraph was not a great steel-man, and there are many variants and nuances of these positions, but generally the implicit assumption is that we have good (I did not say perfect) vertical mobility, when in reality this is not usually the case.
  - cee_el123 4y ago
    user: tharne said > believing where they are due to well executed systemic conspiracies rather than their mistakes, missteps, or a simple lack of motivation or ability the implication certainly is that if you don't make mistakes, missteps, work hard and have talent - in other words if you are full of merit - you'll assuredly end up in a good place sounds like saying we live in a meritocracy
cee_el123 4y ago
"no-dissapointment-in-my-life-is-ever-my-fault trap" I am one of those people who certainly missed the boat due to my own missteps, mistakes, lack of motivation But let's talk about those who don't/didn't have the favourable circumstances and opportunities I had/have Is not being able to afford / be-accepted-for a life changing college degree that person's fault 50% of the time ? is it their parents' fault ? is it the grandparents' fault that the parents weren't better off ? if so ... where does this blame game stop ? at some point govt/society needs to step in and give you a boost regardless of your background debatably, inheritance & land ownership are well executed systemic conspiracies mistakes, missteps, lack of motivation, are all fine - but "lack of ability" ? you're arguing against yourself there - if there is such a thing as lack of ability - that's certainly a terrible reason to disqualify a person from having their basic needs met
- jschveibinz 4y ago
  > if there is such a thing as lack of ability - that’s certainly a terrible reason… I think this is a good point. Nobody should be disqualified, and there are in fact many programs available to help people achieve their personal best. Community college is an excellent stepping stone, as are vocational training programs. These are available in some states at a very low cost. There is self-affirmation in achieving completion of any project, and completion of a training program that enables one to work, to create, to contribute and to develop self-agency is a wonderful thing to do.
- twblalock 4y ago
  Government is constantly giving people a boost. Need-based grants for college, for example. All sorts of welfare programs. Food stamps. Unemployment insurance. Housing vouchers. Social security and Medicare in retirement. I’m not sure what kind of society you are arguing against, because it’s not the one we have.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

by tharne 4y ago

epgui 4y ago

The difference between my comment and yours is that the meritocracy trap is a real thing that has been the subject of scholarly works. Also, I speak not from a place of disappointments, but rather from a place of great privilege. I am extremely lucky to be where I am (and yes, I worked hard for it too). For an overview and references, see: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_meritocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_meritocracy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy#Meritocracy_trap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy#Meritocracy_trap

twblalock 4y ago
You are arguing against a strawman here. Nobody claimed we have a perfect meritocracy.
- epgui 4y ago
  Nobody claimed this directly, but when you boil down most progressive policies to their naked objective, it comes down to redistribution in one form or another, taking from the rich and lifting everyone (most noticeably lifting the poor). Most objections to progressive policies boil down to the idea that the more fortunate people deserve what they have, and that redistribution would make less fortunate people not work as hard. In other words, the world is unfair because of "hand-wavy general incentives". I am aware that second paragraph was not a great steel-man, and there are many variants and nuances of these positions, but generally the implicit assumption is that we have good (I did not say perfect) vertical mobility, when in reality this is not usually the case.
- cee_el123 4y ago
  user: tharne said > believing where they are due to well executed systemic conspiracies rather than their mistakes, missteps, or a simple lack of motivation or ability the implication certainly is that if you don't make mistakes, missteps, work hard and have talent - in other words if you are full of merit - you'll assuredly end up in a good place sounds like saying we live in a meritocracy

cee_el123 4y ago

"no-dissapointment-in-my-life-is-ever-my-fault trap" I am one of those people who certainly missed the boat due to my own missteps, mistakes, lack of motivation But let's talk about those who don't/didn't have the favourable circumstances and opportunities I had/have Is not being able to afford / be-accepted-for a life changing college degree that person's fault 50% of the time ? is it their parents' fault ? is it the grandparents' fault that the parents weren't better off ? if so ... where does this blame game stop ? at some point govt/society needs to step in and give you a boost regardless of your background debatably, inheritance & land ownership are well executed systemic conspiracies mistakes, missteps, lack of motivation, are all fine - but "lack of ability" ? you're arguing against yourself there - if there is such a thing as lack of ability - that's certainly a terrible reason to disqualify a person from having their basic needs met

jschveibinz 4y ago
> if there is such a thing as lack of ability - that’s certainly a terrible reason… I think this is a good point. Nobody should be disqualified, and there are in fact many programs available to help people achieve their personal best. Community college is an excellent stepping stone, as are vocational training programs. These are available in some states at a very low cost. There is self-affirmation in achieving completion of any project, and completion of a training program that enables one to work, to create, to contribute and to develop self-agency is a wonderful thing to do.
twblalock 4y ago
Government is constantly giving people a boost. Need-based grants for college, for example. All sorts of welfare programs. Food stamps. Unemployment insurance. Housing vouchers. Social security and Medicare in retirement. I’m not sure what kind of society you are arguing against, because it’s not the one we have.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]