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Software depreciation is one thing, skills depreciation is another. The iOS dev had to update their app several times since 2011, but how often did they have to

by c7b 4y ago

Software depreciation is one thing, skills depreciation is another. The iOS dev had to update their app several times since 2011, but how often did they have to update their tech stack vs a web dev? Genuine question, I'm all for writing web apps and keeping the web open (I actually asked a question about how to get into web dev today [0], feedback very much appreciated :)), but from the outside it seems dizzying how fast frameworks and even languages change in this space. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32724950 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32724950

cxr 4y ago
Web devs don't have to update their tech stack. That's something they sign up for. If your impression is that you should build with "Next.js/React, Tailwind and TypeScript" because you expect that they "will be state of the art at least for a while", then you risk being massively disappointed, because you're signing yourself up for the same thing. The state of the art does not have a good record wrt longevity. Don't reach for a framework without first understanding the Web platform's primitives (ideally trying to do what you want that way first) and then figuring out what exactly the framework is actually supposed to do for you and why you're choosing it, besides that you just heard that's what lots of other people are doing. Lots of other people do lots of very dumb and counterproductive things. > "[The Web] is software design on the scale of decades: every detail is intended to promote software longevity and independent evolution. Many of the constraints are directly opposed to short-term efficiency. Unfortunately, people are fairly good at short-term design, and usually awful at long-term design. Most don’t think they need to design past the current release." <https://roy.gbiv.com/untangled/2008/rest-apis-must-be-hypertext-driven https://roy.gbiv.com/untangled/2008/rest-apis-must-be-hypert...>
- c7b 4y ago
  Thanks for the feedback! > Don't reach for a framework without first understanding the Web platform's primitives Can you elaborate on that - what are concrete topics you suggest learning first? I actually did a few Cisco Networking Academy semesters, in a different life, but that was about OSI layers, computing IPv4 subnet masks,... it really feels like there's a missing link between that stuff and the knowledge I'd need to make an informed choice between Next.js and Vue.js (or any of the half-dozen other tool choices I have to make) for my app idea.
  - cxr 4y ago
    Nothing like that. Basic HTML elements, esp. e.g. those related to forms. HTMX doesn't completely spit in the face of how the Web was designed and what browser makers implement. <https://htmx.org/essays https://htmx.org/essays> Again, though, knowing what problem something is actually intending to solve is important.
    - c7b 4y ago
      Thanks for the links! So I've had a look at the resources - [0] for example goes to great lengths explaining why JSON APIs are not true to the original "spirit" of REST, but it doesn't exactly do a great job at explaining what problems would be solved (better) by hypermedia-based APIs rather than JSON (or GraphQL,...). Tbh, some of this feels a bit like "What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux...". I am eager to do studying before I just hack away with whatever tool I don't really understand (hence why I created the post) and it seems there are some useful resources there. But my main goal is to study for the sake of building, not getting drawn into a niche for the sake of purism. For example, would I be able to create a nice-looking game app with smooth animations such as [1] using mostly basic HTML, like HTMX seems to encourage? [0] https://htmx.org/essays/how-did-rest-come-to-mean-the-opposite-of-rest/ https://htmx.org/essays/how-did-rest-come-to-mean-the-opposi... [1] https://figure.game/ https://figure.game/
      - cxr 4y ago
        > For example, would I be able to create a nice-looking game app with smooth animations such as [1] using mostly basic HTML You will need CSS and/or SVG for the graphics and animation (or a graphics and animation library that builds on top of those). Games are different from form-based Web applications. The HTMX essays are about protocol design and application decomposition between client and server and what effect this has on how robust the app is, the user experience implications, etc. It's not super relevant if what you're doing is more or less a game that 15–20 years ago would have been created with Flash. > I am eager to do studying before I just hack away No, start hacking. No amount of study is going to enable you to arrive at an informed decision.

by c7b 4y ago

cxr 4y ago

Web devs don't have to update their tech stack. That's something they sign up for. If your impression is that you should build with "Next.js/React, Tailwind and TypeScript" because you expect that they "will be state of the art at least for a while", then you risk being massively disappointed, because you're signing yourself up for the same thing. The state of the art does not have a good record wrt longevity. Don't reach for a framework without first understanding the Web platform's primitives (ideally trying to do what you want that way first) and then figuring out what exactly the framework is actually supposed to do for you and why you're choosing it, besides that you just heard that's what lots of other people are doing. Lots of other people do lots of very dumb and counterproductive things. > "[The Web] is software design on the scale of decades: every detail is intended to promote software longevity and independent evolution. Many of the constraints are directly opposed to short-term efficiency. Unfortunately, people are fairly good at short-term design, and usually awful at long-term design. Most don’t think they need to design past the current release." <https://roy.gbiv.com/untangled/2008/rest-apis-must-be-hypertext-driven https://roy.gbiv.com/untangled/2008/rest-apis-must-be-hypert...>

c7b 4y ago
Thanks for the feedback! > Don't reach for a framework without first understanding the Web platform's primitives Can you elaborate on that - what are concrete topics you suggest learning first? I actually did a few Cisco Networking Academy semesters, in a different life, but that was about OSI layers, computing IPv4 subnet masks,... it really feels like there's a missing link between that stuff and the knowledge I'd need to make an informed choice between Next.js and Vue.js (or any of the half-dozen other tool choices I have to make) for my app idea.
- cxr 4y ago
  Nothing like that. Basic HTML elements, esp. e.g. those related to forms. HTMX doesn't completely spit in the face of how the Web was designed and what browser makers implement. <https://htmx.org/essays https://htmx.org/essays> Again, though, knowing what problem something is actually intending to solve is important.
  - c7b 4y ago
    Thanks for the links! So I've had a look at the resources - [0] for example goes to great lengths explaining why JSON APIs are not true to the original "spirit" of REST, but it doesn't exactly do a great job at explaining what problems would be solved (better) by hypermedia-based APIs rather than JSON (or GraphQL,...). Tbh, some of this feels a bit like "What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux...". I am eager to do studying before I just hack away with whatever tool I don't really understand (hence why I created the post) and it seems there are some useful resources there. But my main goal is to study for the sake of building, not getting drawn into a niche for the sake of purism. For example, would I be able to create a nice-looking game app with smooth animations such as [1] using mostly basic HTML, like HTMX seems to encourage? [0] https://htmx.org/essays/how-did-rest-come-to-mean-the-opposite-of-rest/ https://htmx.org/essays/how-did-rest-come-to-mean-the-opposi... [1] https://figure.game/ https://figure.game/
    - cxr 4y ago
      > For example, would I be able to create a nice-looking game app with smooth animations such as [1] using mostly basic HTML You will need CSS and/or SVG for the graphics and animation (or a graphics and animation library that builds on top of those). Games are different from form-based Web applications. The HTMX essays are about protocol design and application decomposition between client and server and what effect this has on how robust the app is, the user experience implications, etc. It's not super relevant if what you're doing is more or less a game that 15–20 years ago would have been created with Flash. > I am eager to do studying before I just hack away No, start hacking. No amount of study is going to enable you to arrive at an informed decision.