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I agree but for different reasons... namely, our ancestors have lived off red meat for hundreds of thousands of years. We can still eat red meat our entire live

I agree but for different reasons... namely, our ancestors have lived off red meat for hundreds of thousands of years. We can still eat red meat our entire lives with minimal, or at the very least, hard to link direct consequences to our health. It can literally sustain a human for their entire lifespan - so asserting it is unhealthy should be an extremely high bar.

ravenstine 4y ago
Not even just hundreds of thousands, but millions. At least 2.6 million, and possibly as far back as 4.5 million. But yes, with the data being in favor of humans being meat eaters, absent any potential health consequences from such a diet (not that I personally believe there are), the science should be far more rigorous. Actually, much of it isn't science, because epidemiology is not a science any more than "computer science." In case, if anyone here this wants some reading material, or to consider that the case against meat is anything but clear: Behavioral Characteristics and Self-Reported Health Status among 2029 Adults Consuming a “Carnivore Diet” https://academic.oup.com/cdn/article/5/12/nzab133/6415894 https://academic.oup.com/cdn/article/5/12/nzab133/6415894 ^^ To be clear, I consider this kind of research as dubious as similar studies both refuting carnivory or supporting plant-based diets. What it does do is counter the idea that humans aren't supposed to eat meat on the same level as the evidence used to support that claim. Why Humans Eat Meat https://www.history.com/news/why-humans-eat-meat https://www.history.com/news/why-humans-eat-meat For 2 Million Years, Humans Ate Meat And Little Else https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-2-million-years-humans-ate-meat-and-little-else-study/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-2-million-years-humans-ate... Exceptionally high δ15N values in collagen single amino acids confirm Neandertals as high-trophic level carnivores https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6421459/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6421459/ Stable isotope dietary analysis of the Tianyuan 1 early modern human https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2706269/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2706269/ Evolutionary basis for the human diet: consequences for human health https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31733113/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31733113/ Comparative Digestive Physiology https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4458075/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4458075/
- ozim 4y ago
  Discussion is about red meat not just "meat". I somehow don't believe people ate meat in quantities we do today. Though yea people ate meat. I can go to supermarket and eat red meat/chicken every day of the week - to hunt large animal it could take couple days. Of course there was more animals to be hunted but it is not like humans ate chicken breast all time. They ate all kind of crappy meat, legs, tendons whatever they could eat. Best meat like steak or chicken breast was special occasion. People invented stew so they could have meat in multiple days so you eat a little bit of meat everyday. Nowadays it is like special occasion every day.
shzusnwxbwj 4y ago
librish 4y ago
I don't understand this argument. Why does what our ancestors did mean it's either healthy or unhealthy? We know these things are not healthy or unhealthy enough to meaningfully affect reproduction so there shouldn't be an evolutionary argument.
- ibeckermayer 4y ago
  Given how incredibly complex human health is, it’s no trivial task to identify precisely how/why some specific behavior is “healthy” or “unhealthy”. Given that predicament, our best guide is what our ancestors did, since it’s passed the test of evolutionary time to at least get us to our present moment. The burden of proof is on any reformer to demonstrate why his reform is better than the tradition. In the case of something as ancient as meat eating, which is so fundamental to our species as to be reflected in our very physiology (teeth, digestive system), this is an extremely high bar.
- Rury 4y ago
  Well, first off, you seem to be confusing the concept of survival of the fittest and evolution, which are two separate things. Evolution is nothing but the genetic mutations we get and give to our offspring. And it's happening constantly, regardless of whether it meaningfully affected reproduction. It's just that over long periods of time, mutations which are well adapted to helping a species survive their environments and reproduce tend to make it into the next generation. Thus, species tend to evolve/adapt to suit their environments. So if our diets largely involved meat for millions of years during as our time as hunters and gatherers, it's likely we have evolved to eat and digest meat quite well by now without it negatively impacting our health. We do know we have eaten meat for at least a million of years, as we are omnivores and have some carnivorous teeth. And we likely evolved to be omnivores because it probably helped some of our ancient ancestors survive periods of food (plant) scarcity. Some evolutionary researchers think meat eating may even be apart of how we were able to develop our human intelligence.
  - librish 4y ago
    But during those millions of years we didn't have the meat diet alternatives we have now, so how can you assume that meat is better (or worse) than those?

ravenstine 4y ago

Not even just hundreds of thousands, but millions. At least 2.6 million, and possibly as far back as 4.5 million. But yes, with the data being in favor of humans being meat eaters, absent any potential health consequences from such a diet (not that I personally believe there are), the science should be far more rigorous. Actually, much of it isn't science, because epidemiology is not a science any more than "computer science." In case, if anyone here this wants some reading material, or to consider that the case against meat is anything but clear: Behavioral Characteristics and Self-Reported Health Status among 2029 Adults Consuming a “Carnivore Diet” https://academic.oup.com/cdn/article/5/12/nzab133/6415894 https://academic.oup.com/cdn/article/5/12/nzab133/6415894 ^^ To be clear, I consider this kind of research as dubious as similar studies both refuting carnivory or supporting plant-based diets. What it does do is counter the idea that humans aren't supposed to eat meat on the same level as the evidence used to support that claim. Why Humans Eat Meat https://www.history.com/news/why-humans-eat-meat https://www.history.com/news/why-humans-eat-meat For 2 Million Years, Humans Ate Meat And Little Else https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-2-million-years-humans-ate-meat-and-little-else-study/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-2-million-years-humans-ate... Exceptionally high δ15N values in collagen single amino acids confirm Neandertals as high-trophic level carnivores https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6421459/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6421459/ Stable isotope dietary analysis of the Tianyuan 1 early modern human https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2706269/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2706269/ Evolutionary basis for the human diet: consequences for human health https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31733113/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31733113/ Comparative Digestive Physiology https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4458075/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4458075/

ozim 4y ago
Discussion is about red meat not just "meat". I somehow don't believe people ate meat in quantities we do today. Though yea people ate meat. I can go to supermarket and eat red meat/chicken every day of the week - to hunt large animal it could take couple days. Of course there was more animals to be hunted but it is not like humans ate chicken breast all time. They ate all kind of crappy meat, legs, tendons whatever they could eat. Best meat like steak or chicken breast was special occasion. People invented stew so they could have meat in multiple days so you eat a little bit of meat everyday. Nowadays it is like special occasion every day.

shzusnwxbwj 4y ago

librish 4y ago

I don't understand this argument. Why does what our ancestors did mean it's either healthy or unhealthy? We know these things are not healthy or unhealthy enough to meaningfully affect reproduction so there shouldn't be an evolutionary argument.

ibeckermayer 4y ago
Given how incredibly complex human health is, it’s no trivial task to identify precisely how/why some specific behavior is “healthy” or “unhealthy”. Given that predicament, our best guide is what our ancestors did, since it’s passed the test of evolutionary time to at least get us to our present moment. The burden of proof is on any reformer to demonstrate why his reform is better than the tradition. In the case of something as ancient as meat eating, which is so fundamental to our species as to be reflected in our very physiology (teeth, digestive system), this is an extremely high bar.
Rury 4y ago
Well, first off, you seem to be confusing the concept of survival of the fittest and evolution, which are two separate things. Evolution is nothing but the genetic mutations we get and give to our offspring. And it's happening constantly, regardless of whether it meaningfully affected reproduction. It's just that over long periods of time, mutations which are well adapted to helping a species survive their environments and reproduce tend to make it into the next generation. Thus, species tend to evolve/adapt to suit their environments. So if our diets largely involved meat for millions of years during as our time as hunters and gatherers, it's likely we have evolved to eat and digest meat quite well by now without it negatively impacting our health. We do know we have eaten meat for at least a million of years, as we are omnivores and have some carnivorous teeth. And we likely evolved to be omnivores because it probably helped some of our ancient ancestors survive periods of food (plant) scarcity. Some evolutionary researchers think meat eating may even be apart of how we were able to develop our human intelligence.
- librish 4y ago
  But during those millions of years we didn't have the meat diet alternatives we have now, so how can you assume that meat is better (or worse) than those?