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This is a neat example though of how arbitrary EV drivetrains are. A Toyota marketing exec's (just guessing) FUD about imagined consumer FUD turns into, why don

This is a neat example though of how arbitrary EV drivetrains are. A Toyota marketing exec's (just guessing) FUD about imagined consumer FUD turns into, why don't we just ramp down torque in notches in relation to road speed increments? Of course anyone who buys this is going to try it once then leave it in all-the-torque-all-the-time mode, but that's not the point. I can't say I've met a single three pedal afficionado who bemoaned the lack of shifting after experiencing the mild concussion inducing levels of acceleration of some of these new EV's. If roadgoing gas cars had that kind of torque, they wouldn't shift either, just like the fastest drag cars. There's no point.

gpt5 4y ago
The counter argument is that European vehicles are vastly using manual gear, despite the fact that except for a small minority, no one cares about the potential difference in torque. There is just a lot of people that are used the a certain solution and are resistant to change.
- spellboots 4y ago
  There are economic and regulatory factors involved, it is more complex than people being resistant to change which no doubt makes up part of it. In the UK, for example, automatic cars are more expensive to buy and insure [1]. They also tend to be more expensive to learn how to drive as instructors mostly have manual cars to teach with. This incentivises new drivers towards manual cars, especially as younger drivers are more likely to be in lower-paying jobs and therefore more price conscious. There is also a separate license category for automatic cars. If you have this license you are not allowed to drive manual cars, whereas the manual license entitles the holder to drive both. Therefore most new drivers opt to learn manual for the flexibility and the cost reasons. 1: https://www.moneysupermarket.com/car-insurance/automatic-cars/ https://www.moneysupermarket.com/car-insurance/automatic-car...
  - yywwbbn 4y ago
    I find it hard to imagine it would take significantly more than 15 minutes for most people to ‘learn’ how to drive an automatic car even if they only drove a manual before.
    - robryk 4y ago
      The UK authorities agree with you: if you pass the exam with a manual car you can use both, but if you pass it with an automatic one, you can only drive automatic ones.
      - xxs 4y ago
        It's the entirety of Europe - manual=both, automatic=automatic only.
        robryk 4y ago
        Switzerland had that, but abandoned the distinction in 2019: now there are no transmission restrictions on Swiss licenses. Source: https://www.admin.ch/gov/de/start/dokumentation/medienmitteilungen.msg-id-73387.html https://www.admin.ch/gov/de/start/dokumentation/medienmittei..., grep for Automateneintrag
    - falcolas 4y ago
      Muscle memory is a bitch. Two things I’ve done going from a manual to an automatic, sometimes a year after: Slam on the brake as if you’re using the clutch. Automatic brake pedals are more than wide enough to accommodate two feet, and attempting to upshift and slamming on the brake instead can really rattle your brain bucket. Throw the automatic into park. Less of an issue these days, but it used to attempt to actually go into park, with the shenanigans you’d imagine there would be as the parking pin attempted to engage with the forcefully spinning gears.
      - drewg123 4y ago
        Moving from manual to power brakes is also a recipe for slamming on the brakes.. In high school, I drove a really old car with manual everything (including brakes). Our drivers ed class was taught on 80s american sedans, with overboosted power steering and brakes where you could probably just touch them with a single toe to stop. Coming from the manual brakes in my car where I needed to stand on them to stop, I'd inadvertently slam on the brakes early in my turn at the wheel and throw everyone against the seatbelt tensioners..
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - michaelt 4y ago
    Somewhat surprisingly, in the UK Autotrader lists 230k manual cars and 195k automatics So the fraction of manual-transmission cars in the UK is much lower than I would have expected.
- qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
  The actual reason for having gears even with EVs in european vehicles, is mostly the "one plattform" approach which carmakers here afraid to go all in on EVs. Hybrids, traditional combustion and EVs are expected to share as many parts as possible - which of course as all engineering compromises go means you become 2nd best in all areas.
  - detaro 4y ago
    Any examples of cars where that's the case?
    - lokedhs 4y ago
      The Kia Niro is available in three models: Petrol, Hybrid and EV. Now, I have the EV and it doesn't have any gears, but I'm pretty sure there is a lot of things shared between these cars.
      - whaleofatw2022 4y ago
        To your point, the Niro hybrid IIRC does still use a 6 speed transmission as opposed to something like a Prius, or Fusion. Those use an eCVT (much simpler planetary gearset to control power flow between ICE, electric motor, and the wheels.)
- detaro 4y ago
  For new cars that's not true anymore.
- aaronbrethorst 4y ago
  no one cares about the potential difference in torque This stops being true the first time you depress the accelerator on an EV. My Kia has a 0-60 time comparable to a low-end Porsche.
  - SECProto 4y ago
    Are you saying that like it's an obvious and irrefutable benefit? Having driven two EVs, I can safely say that 0-60 times specifically, and acceleration in general, are totally irrelevant to me. As long as the vehicle has no issues accelerating on the on-ramp (so most cars from the last 30years), everything extra is useless.
manholio 4y ago
Electric engines are capable of insane torque, but prolonged operation in such a mode is far from efficient, cool and preferable from a reliability standpoint. Two seconds at the green light - yes, plowing your field with a Tesla - no. So I can see it making sense for vehicles that have have two modes of operation, for example a tractor or all-terain vehicle that also need to work on public roads at relatively high speeds. A manual gear box is ideal in such a setting, because you seldom need to use it and it's very simple, cost effective and reliable. In any case, only useful for an extreme niche of applications.
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robryk 4y ago
In snowy conditions you don't actually want all the torque available: then you'd want to control the torque applied instead of the power delivered when starting to move (similar to placing a restriction on the top torque by shifting into second gear on manual shift cars).
- falcolas 4y ago
  Agreed, and I’d go so far to say you don’t want all the torque on anything but a clean racetrack. Rain, oil, gravel, animal carcasses… there’s plenty of road conditions where a lead foot plus extreme torque will carry you violently off the road.
  - ReactiveJelly 4y ago
    And it might be a good trade-off to pair a motor with a peaky torque curve with a 2-speed or 3-speed gearbox. But if your _only_ goal is to limit torque, you could simulate that by re-mapping the pedal. Say, by hitting "Eco" mode on a Prius.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      My comment is more about why torque should be limitable, not a critique on electric cars.
      - teknopaul 4y ago
        Most cars have traction control AFAIK. Instead of limiting max torque, they notice when it's spinning the wheels. Same in reverse for breaks and abs. On my car you can turn it off if you want some fun on dirt tracks.
        falcolas 4y ago
        Once the wheels are spinning, its often too late. At least in my experience. Its best used to accelerate with minimal spin, and is mediocre - at best - at preventing traction loss in turns of any kind.
Hexcles 4y ago
You're over generalizing. Not all enthusiasts value the same point. For some including myself, it's not about acceleration or speed. Automatic (DCT and the new ZF8) has long surpassed manual transmission in almost all aspects of performance. It's similar to how some people like manual espresso machines, film cameras, etc. It's a hobby and you enjoy the process. See how the newest Koenigsegg goes great length to make this weird automatic manual.
ehnto 4y ago
I am absolutely a manual gearbox fan for driving experience, and that's in Aus where it's not really idolized like it is in America. A lot more manuals here. But you are dead right. I think because it lacks all of the mechanical apparatus anyway, it's not like driving a regular car in automatic, it's like driving a different kind of vehicle. So you don't miss the gearbox. All that said, I do appreciate the tendency for Japanese car companies to take care with the act of doing in their cars. I know Porsche gets the trophy for wholistic driving experiences, but Japan is doing a great job of bringing some of that back from the 90s bubble era cars.
- russellbeattie 4y ago
  It's not idolization it's identification. Americans have a tendency to identify with what they like. You don't just like surfing, you're a surfer. This leads to odd statements like, "I drive a manual, but I'm not a manual driver or anything." After my fellow American identifies with something, then its obvious superiority comes next. It's a complex. See our current political environment for extreme examples.
  - ehnto 4y ago
    That's an interesting point, perhaps that's why seemingly simple preferences can be so divisive over there. If you identify as one tribe, you necessarily are not part of the other tribe. I find that come out in online discussions a lot, an advocate for one thing is often interpreted as an attack on the other. "I like muscle cars" can be met with "what's wrong with imports?" even when you never said anything ill against them.

gpt5 4y ago

The counter argument is that European vehicles are vastly using manual gear, despite the fact that except for a small minority, no one cares about the potential difference in torque. There is just a lot of people that are used the a certain solution and are resistant to change.

spellboots 4y ago
There are economic and regulatory factors involved, it is more complex than people being resistant to change which no doubt makes up part of it. In the UK, for example, automatic cars are more expensive to buy and insure [1]. They also tend to be more expensive to learn how to drive as instructors mostly have manual cars to teach with. This incentivises new drivers towards manual cars, especially as younger drivers are more likely to be in lower-paying jobs and therefore more price conscious. There is also a separate license category for automatic cars. If you have this license you are not allowed to drive manual cars, whereas the manual license entitles the holder to drive both. Therefore most new drivers opt to learn manual for the flexibility and the cost reasons. 1: https://www.moneysupermarket.com/car-insurance/automatic-cars/ https://www.moneysupermarket.com/car-insurance/automatic-car...
- yywwbbn 4y ago
  I find it hard to imagine it would take significantly more than 15 minutes for most people to ‘learn’ how to drive an automatic car even if they only drove a manual before.
  - robryk 4y ago
    The UK authorities agree with you: if you pass the exam with a manual car you can use both, but if you pass it with an automatic one, you can only drive automatic ones.
    - xxs 4y ago
      It's the entirety of Europe - manual=both, automatic=automatic only.
      - robryk 4y ago
        Switzerland had that, but abandoned the distinction in 2019: now there are no transmission restrictions on Swiss licenses. Source: https://www.admin.ch/gov/de/start/dokumentation/medienmitteilungen.msg-id-73387.html https://www.admin.ch/gov/de/start/dokumentation/medienmittei..., grep for Automateneintrag
  - falcolas 4y ago
    Muscle memory is a bitch. Two things I’ve done going from a manual to an automatic, sometimes a year after: Slam on the brake as if you’re using the clutch. Automatic brake pedals are more than wide enough to accommodate two feet, and attempting to upshift and slamming on the brake instead can really rattle your brain bucket. Throw the automatic into park. Less of an issue these days, but it used to attempt to actually go into park, with the shenanigans you’d imagine there would be as the parking pin attempted to engage with the forcefully spinning gears.
    - drewg123 4y ago
      Moving from manual to power brakes is also a recipe for slamming on the brakes.. In high school, I drove a really old car with manual everything (including brakes). Our drivers ed class was taught on 80s american sedans, with overboosted power steering and brakes where you could probably just touch them with a single toe to stop. Coming from the manual brakes in my car where I needed to stand on them to stop, I'd inadvertently slam on the brakes early in my turn at the wheel and throw everyone against the seatbelt tensioners..
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- michaelt 4y ago
  Somewhat surprisingly, in the UK Autotrader lists 230k manual cars and 195k automatics So the fraction of manual-transmission cars in the UK is much lower than I would have expected.
qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
The actual reason for having gears even with EVs in european vehicles, is mostly the "one plattform" approach which carmakers here afraid to go all in on EVs. Hybrids, traditional combustion and EVs are expected to share as many parts as possible - which of course as all engineering compromises go means you become 2nd best in all areas.
- detaro 4y ago
  Any examples of cars where that's the case?
  - lokedhs 4y ago
    The Kia Niro is available in three models: Petrol, Hybrid and EV. Now, I have the EV and it doesn't have any gears, but I'm pretty sure there is a lot of things shared between these cars.
    - whaleofatw2022 4y ago
      To your point, the Niro hybrid IIRC does still use a 6 speed transmission as opposed to something like a Prius, or Fusion. Those use an eCVT (much simpler planetary gearset to control power flow between ICE, electric motor, and the wheels.)
detaro 4y ago
For new cars that's not true anymore.
aaronbrethorst 4y ago
no one cares about the potential difference in torque This stops being true the first time you depress the accelerator on an EV. My Kia has a 0-60 time comparable to a low-end Porsche.
- SECProto 4y ago
  Are you saying that like it's an obvious and irrefutable benefit? Having driven two EVs, I can safely say that 0-60 times specifically, and acceleration in general, are totally irrelevant to me. As long as the vehicle has no issues accelerating on the on-ramp (so most cars from the last 30years), everything extra is useless.

manholio 4y ago

Electric engines are capable of insane torque, but prolonged operation in such a mode is far from efficient, cool and preferable from a reliability standpoint. Two seconds at the green light - yes, plowing your field with a Tesla - no. So I can see it making sense for vehicles that have have two modes of operation, for example a tractor or all-terain vehicle that also need to work on public roads at relatively high speeds. A manual gear box is ideal in such a setting, because you seldom need to use it and it's very simple, cost effective and reliable. In any case, only useful for an extreme niche of applications.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

robryk 4y ago

In snowy conditions you don't actually want all the torque available: then you'd want to control the torque applied instead of the power delivered when starting to move (similar to placing a restriction on the top torque by shifting into second gear on manual shift cars).

falcolas 4y ago
Agreed, and I’d go so far to say you don’t want all the torque on anything but a clean racetrack. Rain, oil, gravel, animal carcasses… there’s plenty of road conditions where a lead foot plus extreme torque will carry you violently off the road.
- ReactiveJelly 4y ago
  And it might be a good trade-off to pair a motor with a peaky torque curve with a 2-speed or 3-speed gearbox. But if your _only_ goal is to limit torque, you could simulate that by re-mapping the pedal. Say, by hitting "Eco" mode on a Prius.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    My comment is more about why torque should be limitable, not a critique on electric cars.
    - teknopaul 4y ago
      Most cars have traction control AFAIK. Instead of limiting max torque, they notice when it's spinning the wheels. Same in reverse for breaks and abs. On my car you can turn it off if you want some fun on dirt tracks.
      - falcolas 4y ago
        Once the wheels are spinning, its often too late. At least in my experience. Its best used to accelerate with minimal spin, and is mediocre - at best - at preventing traction loss in turns of any kind.

Hexcles 4y ago

You're over generalizing. Not all enthusiasts value the same point. For some including myself, it's not about acceleration or speed. Automatic (DCT and the new ZF8) has long surpassed manual transmission in almost all aspects of performance. It's similar to how some people like manual espresso machines, film cameras, etc. It's a hobby and you enjoy the process. See how the newest Koenigsegg goes great length to make this weird automatic manual.

ehnto 4y ago

I am absolutely a manual gearbox fan for driving experience, and that's in Aus where it's not really idolized like it is in America. A lot more manuals here. But you are dead right. I think because it lacks all of the mechanical apparatus anyway, it's not like driving a regular car in automatic, it's like driving a different kind of vehicle. So you don't miss the gearbox. All that said, I do appreciate the tendency for Japanese car companies to take care with the act of doing in their cars. I know Porsche gets the trophy for wholistic driving experiences, but Japan is doing a great job of bringing some of that back from the 90s bubble era cars.

russellbeattie 4y ago
It's not idolization it's identification. Americans have a tendency to identify with what they like. You don't just like surfing, you're a surfer. This leads to odd statements like, "I drive a manual, but I'm not a manual driver or anything." After my fellow American identifies with something, then its obvious superiority comes next. It's a complex. See our current political environment for extreme examples.
- ehnto 4y ago
  That's an interesting point, perhaps that's why seemingly simple preferences can be so divisive over there. If you identify as one tribe, you necessarily are not part of the other tribe. I find that come out in online discussions a lot, an advocate for one thing is often interpreted as an attack on the other. "I like muscle cars" can be met with "what's wrong with imports?" even when you never said anything ill against them.