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I’ve used all of these semi-extensively (slightly less so LW). The environments you get with FL and LW are useful if you aren’t an experienced Emacs user, and e

I’ve used all of these semi-extensively (slightly less so LW). The environments you get with FL and LW are useful if you aren’t an experienced Emacs user, and each of the pro ones comes with a lot of useful support (and FL’s amazing but expensive gdb), but these days, if all you want to do is get programming done, and don’t need, or don’t want to pay for a highly supported world-class engineering platform, you can do pretty much everything you want at a lot less cost and weight with sbcl, emacs, amd some calling to python. Libraries. If some multi-millionaire wanted to do the world a solid, they’d buy and open source (and pay for continuing support) for FL.

thisgyjuijhyeee 4y ago
You make it sound like SBCL is an also ran. SBCL powers Google flights.
- abrax3141 4y ago
  Def didn’t mean that. I use sbcl+emacs all the time. It’s my go to platform. I’ve used FL and LW but don’t need them. SBCL+emacs is all you really need. (I started lisping before slime so never really got into it. If it’s half as good as folks claim then maybe square all of the above. But someone else will have to chime in on that.)
aidenn0 4y ago
As a lifelong vi user, SLIME is useful even if you aren't an experienced emacs user. For a while I used SLIME as my debugger and vim as my editor.
- ctrlmeta 4y ago
  How do you use SLIME in Vim? Isn't SLIME written in Emacs Lisp which runs only in Emacs? Honest question how you could run an Emacs package in Vim?
  - 3836293648 4y ago
    With this: https://github.com/jpalardy/vim-slime https://github.com/jpalardy/vim-slime It doesn't do everything, it doesn't do it as elegantly, but it works
    - ctrlmeta 4y ago
      This does not look like SLIME. It seems to be just copying the text from one text buffer and pasting it to another Vim buffer which is running a REPL. That is not what SLIME is really! I can't even call this a poor imitation of SLIME because it is not SLIME in any sense of what SLIME is. There is no Swank server this connects to. There is no understanding of Lisp's s-expressions. It would happily copy any random text into any random REPL and call it job done! It is weird that they have chosen the name "SLIME" for vim-slime project when it is not SLIME in any way.
  - Jtsummers 4y ago
    SLIME is, but there is Slimv which is a SWANK client for vim: https://github.com/kovisoft/slimv https://github.com/kovisoft/slimv (Never used it myself so can't comment on it beyond noting its existence.)
  - hiptobecubic 4y ago
    You don't. You run it in emacs. That's what they are saying.
  - aidenn0 4y ago
    I have an article I wrote about how I did this, but may have lost it to time. The short version is I have SLIME running inside Emacs, and my text files open in vim. I would just reload the changed file(s) when needed (originally with cl:load-file, then later with asdf, which is roughly "make" for lisp). I used slime similarly to how I would use gdb. It was a big improvement over using vim with the clisp[1] REPL both because SLIME was more powerful than the clisp repl, and because it worked with other implementations like CMU CL (which sbcl now is a fork of). I mostly just used the menus for interacting with emacs, but since the shortcuts are listed beside commands, I did learn the more commonly used ones. I continued like this for years until I discoveredevil-mode[2], which was the first thing close enough to vim to be usable for me (and even then I had to add a few keybindings that it was missing). 1: clisp is a specific implementation of common lisp, not an abbreviation 2: https://github.com/emacs-evil/evil https://github.com/emacs-evil/evil
- ducktective 4y ago
  I'm inclined to try to learn a Lisp, but the tight integration with Emacs is putting me off. I spent a lot of time and effort to learn vim and I'm wondering why a family of languages should be this dependent on a specific editor...
  - abrax3141 4y ago
    It’s not. You can use any editor. Emacs just happens to have a package called slime that helps - I’m told. I’ve been using just lisp+emacs w/o slime for decades. To be clear, except for slime, which as above is optional, any editor will do just fine.
  - Jtsummers 4y ago
    > why a family of languages should be this dependent on a specific editor... The language isn't, but SLIME is because emacs isn't just an editor, it's a platform and system that people develop applications on top of. And the community was already there, using emacs, to continue with that option.
  - klipt 4y ago
    You can emulate vim key bindings in Emacs with ViperMode.
    - aidenn0 4y ago
      No you can't. evil-mode gets pretty close though.
    - xigoi 4y ago
      Vim isn't just keybindings.
  - e3bc54b2 4y ago
    > I'm wondering why a family of languages should be this dependent on a specific editor... As mentioned by others, its not. But Emacs is also a Lisp runtime. People who are attracted to Emacs eventually learn some Lisp (Emacs Lisp, closer to CL than Racket et al) or were attracted because of Lisp in the first place. As a result, the overlap between CL devs and Emacs users is naturally higher than that for other editors. This translates into people developing more and better tools for their editor, and higher popularity usually translated into more and better tools (with obvious exceptions). As mentioned by other commenters, SLIME can be used with Vim too, if that's your thing. But just like SBCL, Emacs is kinda of de-facto editor of choice, not by force, but by love of its users :)
medo-bear 4y ago
what calls to python libraries are you referring to? i think it would be nice for someone to do a comparison of development in emacs+slime vs allegro cl vs lisp works
- abrax3141 4y ago
  Unfortunately I’ve rolled my own ugly python ffi just to use python libraries. It’s slow as frozen honey bcs it gets to the great python libraries by slogging through python itself to do the data (de)muxing. That millionaire I mentioned should figure out how to get sbcl to call to python packages directly.
AlexeyBrin 4y ago
What Common Lisp implementation is FL ?
- abrax3141 4y ago
  Sorry. Allegro used to be called Franz Lisp. ACL would be a more correct usage.
  - larsbrinkhoff 4y ago
    Although Franz Inc supported Franz Lisp and developed Allegro Common Lisp, it is my impression they are distinct implementations. I can't find any hard evidence one way or another. Do you know?
    - abrax3141 4y ago
      A think FL just morphed into ACL by renaming, and probably some code changes, but not reimplementation, but not having been there, I’m not 100% sure. Since then, of course, it’s essentially a different implementation bvo many revs.
      - lispm 4y ago
        They say Allegro CL was a new implementation written from scratch: https://franz.com/about/company.history.lhtml https://franz.com/about/company.history.lhtml
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

thisgyjuijhyeee 4y ago

You make it sound like SBCL is an also ran. SBCL powers Google flights.

abrax3141 4y ago
Def didn’t mean that. I use sbcl+emacs all the time. It’s my go to platform. I’ve used FL and LW but don’t need them. SBCL+emacs is all you really need. (I started lisping before slime so never really got into it. If it’s half as good as folks claim then maybe square all of the above. But someone else will have to chime in on that.)

aidenn0 4y ago

As a lifelong vi user, SLIME is useful even if you aren't an experienced emacs user. For a while I used SLIME as my debugger and vim as my editor.

ctrlmeta 4y ago
How do you use SLIME in Vim? Isn't SLIME written in Emacs Lisp which runs only in Emacs? Honest question how you could run an Emacs package in Vim?
- 3836293648 4y ago
  With this: https://github.com/jpalardy/vim-slime https://github.com/jpalardy/vim-slime It doesn't do everything, it doesn't do it as elegantly, but it works
  - ctrlmeta 4y ago
    This does not look like SLIME. It seems to be just copying the text from one text buffer and pasting it to another Vim buffer which is running a REPL. That is not what SLIME is really! I can't even call this a poor imitation of SLIME because it is not SLIME in any sense of what SLIME is. There is no Swank server this connects to. There is no understanding of Lisp's s-expressions. It would happily copy any random text into any random REPL and call it job done! It is weird that they have chosen the name "SLIME" for vim-slime project when it is not SLIME in any way.
- Jtsummers 4y ago
  SLIME is, but there is Slimv which is a SWANK client for vim: https://github.com/kovisoft/slimv https://github.com/kovisoft/slimv (Never used it myself so can't comment on it beyond noting its existence.)
- hiptobecubic 4y ago
  You don't. You run it in emacs. That's what they are saying.
- aidenn0 4y ago
  I have an article I wrote about how I did this, but may have lost it to time. The short version is I have SLIME running inside Emacs, and my text files open in vim. I would just reload the changed file(s) when needed (originally with cl:load-file, then later with asdf, which is roughly "make" for lisp). I used slime similarly to how I would use gdb. It was a big improvement over using vim with the clisp[1] REPL both because SLIME was more powerful than the clisp repl, and because it worked with other implementations like CMU CL (which sbcl now is a fork of). I mostly just used the menus for interacting with emacs, but since the shortcuts are listed beside commands, I did learn the more commonly used ones. I continued like this for years until I discoveredevil-mode[2], which was the first thing close enough to vim to be usable for me (and even then I had to add a few keybindings that it was missing). 1: clisp is a specific implementation of common lisp, not an abbreviation 2: https://github.com/emacs-evil/evil https://github.com/emacs-evil/evil
ducktective 4y ago
I'm inclined to try to learn a Lisp, but the tight integration with Emacs is putting me off. I spent a lot of time and effort to learn vim and I'm wondering why a family of languages should be this dependent on a specific editor...
- abrax3141 4y ago
  It’s not. You can use any editor. Emacs just happens to have a package called slime that helps - I’m told. I’ve been using just lisp+emacs w/o slime for decades. To be clear, except for slime, which as above is optional, any editor will do just fine.
- Jtsummers 4y ago
  > why a family of languages should be this dependent on a specific editor... The language isn't, but SLIME is because emacs isn't just an editor, it's a platform and system that people develop applications on top of. And the community was already there, using emacs, to continue with that option.
- klipt 4y ago
  You can emulate vim key bindings in Emacs with ViperMode.
  - aidenn0 4y ago
    No you can't. evil-mode gets pretty close though.
  - xigoi 4y ago
    Vim isn't just keybindings.
- e3bc54b2 4y ago
  > I'm wondering why a family of languages should be this dependent on a specific editor... As mentioned by others, its not. But Emacs is also a Lisp runtime. People who are attracted to Emacs eventually learn some Lisp (Emacs Lisp, closer to CL than Racket et al) or were attracted because of Lisp in the first place. As a result, the overlap between CL devs and Emacs users is naturally higher than that for other editors. This translates into people developing more and better tools for their editor, and higher popularity usually translated into more and better tools (with obvious exceptions). As mentioned by other commenters, SLIME can be used with Vim too, if that's your thing. But just like SBCL, Emacs is kinda of de-facto editor of choice, not by force, but by love of its users :)

medo-bear 4y ago

what calls to python libraries are you referring to? i think it would be nice for someone to do a comparison of development in emacs+slime vs allegro cl vs lisp works

abrax3141 4y ago
Unfortunately I’ve rolled my own ugly python ffi just to use python libraries. It’s slow as frozen honey bcs it gets to the great python libraries by slogging through python itself to do the data (de)muxing. That millionaire I mentioned should figure out how to get sbcl to call to python packages directly.

AlexeyBrin 4y ago

What Common Lisp implementation is FL ?

abrax3141 4y ago
Sorry. Allegro used to be called Franz Lisp. ACL would be a more correct usage.
- larsbrinkhoff 4y ago
  Although Franz Inc supported Franz Lisp and developed Allegro Common Lisp, it is my impression they are distinct implementations. I can't find any hard evidence one way or another. Do you know?
  - abrax3141 4y ago
    A think FL just morphed into ACL by renaming, and probably some code changes, but not reimplementation, but not having been there, I’m not 100% sure. Since then, of course, it’s essentially a different implementation bvo many revs.
    - lispm 4y ago
      They say Allegro CL was a new implementation written from scratch: https://franz.com/about/company.history.lhtml https://franz.com/about/company.history.lhtml
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]