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>There was a feeling that this was unfair to all those who got the vaccine and thereby had much better outcomes But that's how healthcare works. How many other

>There was a feeling that this was unfair to all those who got the vaccine and thereby had much better outcomes But that's how healthcare works. How many other conditions do healthcare professionals have to treat, that are the result of people who made bad choices? Am I allowed to get salty about the number of lung cancer patients dying slowly and draining healthcare resources? >the healthcare system wouldn't be full of those who didn't get vaccinated. Full? What % of hospitalisations were unvaccinated and Covid-related, during a given time period?

revolvingocelot 4y ago
>But that's how healthcare works. How many other conditions do healthcare professionals have to treat, that are the result of people who made bad choices? What, you mean triage? "Bad choices"?! Just upthread you people are going on about how the vaccine has been forced on everybody! Which is it?! >Am I allowed to get salty about the number of lung cancer patients dying slowly and draining healthcare resources? I'm sorry, I must have missed the huge numbers of lung cancer patients clogging up the healthcare system, and the ease with which the worst consequences of lung cancer are ameliorated with a newly-developed vaccine that they refused to get. I never saw all those cancer patients before COVID started; I presume COVID drove them away from the healthcare system? Or maybe you're just making up nonsense. Hmm! >Full? What % of hospitalisations were unvaccinated and Covid-related, during a given time period? Why don't you go find out? I think the answer will surprise you! The reason you guys come up with such insane apples-to-snozzberries counterfactual comparison is that there isn't really a modern comparison to the public health failure to get everyone to get the goddamn vaccine.
- fdewrewrewf 4y ago
  I don't understand your use of the word "triage". Unless I am mis-understanding, you are defining it as "we will triage unvaccinated Covid patients as "not needing care"". In which case - everything I've said still stands. Should we triage smokers with lung cancer as "not needing care"? You would also be conflating "triage a medical condition" with "make a moral judgement about deserving care". Obviously there isn't a "bad choice" if the "right choice" has been forced on everyone (which is nearer the truth). >I must have missed the huge numbers of lung cancer patients clogging up the healthcare system You should look a bit harder. https://news.cancerresearchuk.org/2012/11/07/lung-cancer-uk-price-tag-eclipses-the-cost-of-any-other-cancer/ https://news.cancerresearchuk.org/2012/11/07/lung-cancer-uk-... And that's just one of many largely self-inflicted but expensive conditions that people receive treatment for, and (at least in the UK) at huge amounts of expense to the taxpayer. >Why don't you go find out? I think the answer will surprise you! Just to be clear, you said that "the healthcare system [was] full of those who didn't get vaccinated". Finding out the percentage of hospitalisations that were unvaccinated and Covid-related does require comparing a few data sources, so it's not a simple Google away. I'll focus on mechanical ventilation usage, as that was the easiest data to find, and use UK data as that's where I live. First - the easy number to find is the percentage of Covid patients in ICU who are unvaccinated. It varied during the main pandemic months between 50% and 75%[1]. Let's call it 62%. Next - how many patients is that? Picking the end of December, that's around 750[2]. Finally - how many mechanical ventilators are available in total? It varies, but 5000 is a good number[3]. Multiplying it all out, the percentage of ventilated beds that were occupied at the end of December 2021 by unvaccinated, Covid-positive people was 9%. Who's surprised? [1] https://fullfact.org/health/unvaccinated-icu-channel4-icnarc/ https://fullfact.org/health/unvaccinated-icu-channel4-icnarc... [2] https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/ https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas..., "Weekly Admissions and Beds from 1 October 2021 up to 31 March 2022 (XLSX, 2.6MB)" [3] https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/11/1/e042945 https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/11/1/e042945 >get the goddamn vaccine. Yep, heard that one before. You realise you are taking part in a discussion on research into serious side effects of the Covid vaccines?

revolvingocelot 4y ago

>But that's how healthcare works. How many other conditions do healthcare professionals have to treat, that are the result of people who made bad choices? What, you mean triage? "Bad choices"?! Just upthread you people are going on about how the vaccine has been forced on everybody! Which is it?! >Am I allowed to get salty about the number of lung cancer patients dying slowly and draining healthcare resources? I'm sorry, I must have missed the huge numbers of lung cancer patients clogging up the healthcare system, and the ease with which the worst consequences of lung cancer are ameliorated with a newly-developed vaccine that they refused to get. I never saw all those cancer patients before COVID started; I presume COVID drove them away from the healthcare system? Or maybe you're just making up nonsense. Hmm! >Full? What % of hospitalisations were unvaccinated and Covid-related, during a given time period? Why don't you go find out? I think the answer will surprise you! The reason you guys come up with such insane apples-to-snozzberries counterfactual comparison is that there isn't really a modern comparison to the public health failure to get everyone to get the goddamn vaccine.

fdewrewrewf 4y ago
I don't understand your use of the word "triage". Unless I am mis-understanding, you are defining it as "we will triage unvaccinated Covid patients as "not needing care"". In which case - everything I've said still stands. Should we triage smokers with lung cancer as "not needing care"? You would also be conflating "triage a medical condition" with "make a moral judgement about deserving care". Obviously there isn't a "bad choice" if the "right choice" has been forced on everyone (which is nearer the truth). >I must have missed the huge numbers of lung cancer patients clogging up the healthcare system You should look a bit harder. https://news.cancerresearchuk.org/2012/11/07/lung-cancer-uk-price-tag-eclipses-the-cost-of-any-other-cancer/ https://news.cancerresearchuk.org/2012/11/07/lung-cancer-uk-... And that's just one of many largely self-inflicted but expensive conditions that people receive treatment for, and (at least in the UK) at huge amounts of expense to the taxpayer. >Why don't you go find out? I think the answer will surprise you! Just to be clear, you said that "the healthcare system [was] full of those who didn't get vaccinated". Finding out the percentage of hospitalisations that were unvaccinated and Covid-related does require comparing a few data sources, so it's not a simple Google away. I'll focus on mechanical ventilation usage, as that was the easiest data to find, and use UK data as that's where I live. First - the easy number to find is the percentage of Covid patients in ICU who are unvaccinated. It varied during the main pandemic months between 50% and 75%[1]. Let's call it 62%. Next - how many patients is that? Picking the end of December, that's around 750[2]. Finally - how many mechanical ventilators are available in total? It varies, but 5000 is a good number[3]. Multiplying it all out, the percentage of ventilated beds that were occupied at the end of December 2021 by unvaccinated, Covid-positive people was 9%. Who's surprised? [1] https://fullfact.org/health/unvaccinated-icu-channel4-icnarc/ https://fullfact.org/health/unvaccinated-icu-channel4-icnarc... [2] https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/ https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas..., "Weekly Admissions and Beds from 1 October 2021 up to 31 March 2022 (XLSX, 2.6MB)" [3] https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/11/1/e042945 https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/11/1/e042945 >get the goddamn vaccine. Yep, heard that one before. You realise you are taking part in a discussion on research into serious side effects of the Covid vaccines?