6 ms·

Just like every other vaccine... Nothing special about the COVID vaccine in this regard.

zmgsabst 4y ago
…no? I’ve never had work, airplanes, or hospitals check for vaccines. Nor restaurants, entertainment venues, etc. There was nothing standard about how this was deployed — and pretending otherwise is gaslighting.
- billythemaniam 4y ago
  Hospitals have always checked for vaccines in public health crises when relevant. That is part of the playbook. They have also required staff to be vaccinated for decades. Schools at all levels have required proof for decades. Those other businesses didn't need to check because most likely someone was already vaccinated or enough people were vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. COVID was the first virus and vaccine in decades that needed to be treated similarly to measles, etc. Please stop throwing the word gaslighting around. First, it has a specific meaning that isn't relevant here. Second, using that word in this context just shows ignorance on the current topic.
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    I think it’s entirely appropriate to call this gaslighting: - you didn’t actually name any similar time - you admit that this was unusual by a number of the places I listed - the polices around COVID are unprecedented in history, eg refusal with mandates being a small fine rather than being exiled from society - you resorted to personal attacks, despite you being wrong
    - billythemaniam 4y ago
      Your bullet points just show that you think I made a bad argument. That is totally fine, but that isn't gaslighting. "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” -Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride
      - zmgsabst 4y ago
        Yes — accusing me of not using words right without addressing the substance is classic gaslighting, and responding with more gaslighting when called out about poor behavior is typical in gaslighters.
        billythemaniam 4y ago
        Oh geez. I think you are conflating disagreement with gaslighting. The simplest definition is trying to make someone question their own reality, often for malevolent ends. A debate, what this actually is, is about trying to convince someone of your point of view not distort the other's reality. A debate certainly could be used to gaslight, but gaslighting is a set of behaviors. A debate alone is not gaslighting. Disagreement is not gaslighting. Trying to convince another of your point of view is not gaslighting. Using debate tactics like personal attacks and word definitions is not gaslighting. Painting a broad brush and casting everyone that disagrees with your position "gaslighting", like you did in your very first response, is also not gaslighting. It is lazy, wrong, annoying but still not gaslighting. At least none of those things are gaslighting in isolation. In other words, we disagree on the "facts". If you want to call that gaslighting, okay but then you are gaslighting me too (or trying). For the record, I don't think you are gaslighting. I do think I have offended you deeply which wasn't my intention so I apologize if I have.
    - Bud 4y ago
      Please do a few basic googles (like "mandatory vaccination history") before pretending to know what is "unprecedented in history". You have no idea what you are talking about. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/09/us/politics/vaccine-mandates-history.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/09/us/politics/vaccine-manda...
      - zmgsabst 4y ago
        I explicitly pointed out the differences in the comment you’re replying to — related to the differences in consequences.
- Terretta 4y ago
  > I’ve never had airplanes check for vaccines Perhaps you haven’t crossed borders to places where it mattered enough for a protocol. Plenty places have required shots for entry visas and others for re-entry visas, and visas are checked by airlines before embarking then border control on disembarking. Other places ask to see more paperwork than just the visa, commonly asking for a vaccine journal or record. For instance: What vaccines are required for U.S. immigration? At this time, vaccines for these diseases are currently required for U.S. immigration: - Mumps - Measles - Rubella - Polio - Tetanus and diphtheria - Pertussis - Haemophilus influenzae type B (Hib) - Hepatitis A - Hepatitis B - Rotavirus - Meningococcal disease - Varicella - Pneumococcal disease https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/immigrate/vaccinations.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/immigrat...
  - oceanplexian 4y ago
    I’ve crossed The borders of maybe ~50 countries and the parent is completely right, I have never once been asked to prove, especially not with some kind of electronic health passport that I was vaccinated with any of those things.
    - Terretta 4y ago
      Perhaps you were selective about those ~50 countries, as the opening paragraph of Wikipedia agrees with my experience: Vaccination requirements for international travel are the aspect of vaccination policy that concerns the movement of people across borders. Countries around the world require travellers departing to other countries, or arriving from other countries, to be vaccinated against certain infectious diseases in order to prevent epidemics. AT BORDER CHECKS, these travellers are required to show proof of vaccination against specific diseases; the most widely used vaccination record is the International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis (ICVP or Carte Jaune/Yellow Card). (emphasis supplied) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_requirements_for_international_travel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_requirements_for_i... See also: The International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis (ICVP), also known as the Carte Jaune or Yellow Card, is an official vaccination report created by the World Health Organization (WHO). As a travel document, it is a kind of medical passport that is recognised internationally and MAY BE REQUIRED FOR ENTRY to certain countries where there are increased health risks for travellers. (emphasis supplied) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_Vaccination_or_Prophylaxis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_V... As noted in prior comment, while I’ve had to have this card for some nations, most countries that require immunization record do it in order to get a VISA, and most airlines consider the visa sufficient. It may also be that your ~50 countries were not in zones that have these practices. For example, I’ve traveled extensively in these green and light green zones that do: https://i.imgur.com/3DTF6n8.jpg https://i.imgur.com/3DTF6n8.jpg Here are countries requiring proof of yellow fever vax as of 2019 (not all at-risk countries listed require it): https://cdn.who.int/media/docs/default-source/documents/emergencies/travel-advice/countries-yellow-fever-transmission-risk-requiring-ith-travel-en.pdf https://cdn.who.int/media/docs/default-source/documents/emer... // Parent is not “completely right”, only “anecdotally” right. Given the audience size of HN, it’s likely several readers share a birthday, and likely many readers have not experienced vax checks at borders. And yet, they exist.
- Bud 4y ago
  You don't appear to have the faintest idea what gaslighting means. Hint: this isn't it. Yes, of course the rollout of covid vaccines was different than YOUR EXPERIENCE of all other vaccines. Because you weren't around when the polio vaccine rolled out, or for any influenza pandemics, or the plague, or smallpox. Have you thought for 15 seconds before speaking? Obviously, when a new disease emerges and is killing millions of people, you have to do a NEW vaccine rollout, and so obviously, this is going to look different than the normal process where children receive a long list of vaccinations that have built up over the last century or so. You need to get your basic facts straight before accusing those who actually are thinking about the issue of "gaslighting".
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    I was specifically talking about previous vaccine mandates during flu pandemics, as a point of comparison. Is your comparison that we should act like medieval Europe? — otherwise I don’t know why you’re discussing the plague. We live in a different society with different standards. Despite accusing me of “not thinking”, you’re making completely absurd comparisons. And it’s precisely that kind of nonsense response accusing me of not understanding which I believe is gaslighting.

…no? I’ve never had work, airplanes, or hospitals check for vaccines. Nor restaurants, entertainment venues, etc. There was nothing standard about how this was deployed — and pretending otherwise is gaslighting.

billythemaniam 4y ago
Hospitals have always checked for vaccines in public health crises when relevant. That is part of the playbook. They have also required staff to be vaccinated for decades. Schools at all levels have required proof for decades. Those other businesses didn't need to check because most likely someone was already vaccinated or enough people were vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. COVID was the first virus and vaccine in decades that needed to be treated similarly to measles, etc. Please stop throwing the word gaslighting around. First, it has a specific meaning that isn't relevant here. Second, using that word in this context just shows ignorance on the current topic.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  I think it’s entirely appropriate to call this gaslighting: - you didn’t actually name any similar time - you admit that this was unusual by a number of the places I listed - the polices around COVID are unprecedented in history, eg refusal with mandates being a small fine rather than being exiled from society - you resorted to personal attacks, despite you being wrong
  - billythemaniam 4y ago
    Your bullet points just show that you think I made a bad argument. That is totally fine, but that isn't gaslighting. "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” -Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride
    - zmgsabst 4y ago
      Yes — accusing me of not using words right without addressing the substance is classic gaslighting, and responding with more gaslighting when called out about poor behavior is typical in gaslighters.
      - billythemaniam 4y ago
        Oh geez. I think you are conflating disagreement with gaslighting. The simplest definition is trying to make someone question their own reality, often for malevolent ends. A debate, what this actually is, is about trying to convince someone of your point of view not distort the other's reality. A debate certainly could be used to gaslight, but gaslighting is a set of behaviors. A debate alone is not gaslighting. Disagreement is not gaslighting. Trying to convince another of your point of view is not gaslighting. Using debate tactics like personal attacks and word definitions is not gaslighting. Painting a broad brush and casting everyone that disagrees with your position "gaslighting", like you did in your very first response, is also not gaslighting. It is lazy, wrong, annoying but still not gaslighting. At least none of those things are gaslighting in isolation. In other words, we disagree on the "facts". If you want to call that gaslighting, okay but then you are gaslighting me too (or trying). For the record, I don't think you are gaslighting. I do think I have offended you deeply which wasn't my intention so I apologize if I have.
  - Bud 4y ago
    Please do a few basic googles (like "mandatory vaccination history") before pretending to know what is "unprecedented in history". You have no idea what you are talking about. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/09/us/politics/vaccine-mandates-history.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/09/us/politics/vaccine-manda...
    - zmgsabst 4y ago
      I explicitly pointed out the differences in the comment you’re replying to — related to the differences in consequences.
Terretta 4y ago
> I’ve never had airplanes check for vaccines Perhaps you haven’t crossed borders to places where it mattered enough for a protocol. Plenty places have required shots for entry visas and others for re-entry visas, and visas are checked by airlines before embarking then border control on disembarking. Other places ask to see more paperwork than just the visa, commonly asking for a vaccine journal or record. For instance: What vaccines are required for U.S. immigration? At this time, vaccines for these diseases are currently required for U.S. immigration: - Mumps - Measles - Rubella - Polio - Tetanus and diphtheria - Pertussis - Haemophilus influenzae type B (Hib) - Hepatitis A - Hepatitis B - Rotavirus - Meningococcal disease - Varicella - Pneumococcal disease https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/immigrate/vaccinations.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/immigrat...
- oceanplexian 4y ago
  I’ve crossed The borders of maybe ~50 countries and the parent is completely right, I have never once been asked to prove, especially not with some kind of electronic health passport that I was vaccinated with any of those things.
  - Terretta 4y ago
    Perhaps you were selective about those ~50 countries, as the opening paragraph of Wikipedia agrees with my experience: Vaccination requirements for international travel are the aspect of vaccination policy that concerns the movement of people across borders. Countries around the world require travellers departing to other countries, or arriving from other countries, to be vaccinated against certain infectious diseases in order to prevent epidemics. AT BORDER CHECKS, these travellers are required to show proof of vaccination against specific diseases; the most widely used vaccination record is the International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis (ICVP or Carte Jaune/Yellow Card). (emphasis supplied) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_requirements_for_international_travel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_requirements_for_i... See also: The International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis (ICVP), also known as the Carte Jaune or Yellow Card, is an official vaccination report created by the World Health Organization (WHO). As a travel document, it is a kind of medical passport that is recognised internationally and MAY BE REQUIRED FOR ENTRY to certain countries where there are increased health risks for travellers. (emphasis supplied) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_Vaccination_or_Prophylaxis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_V... As noted in prior comment, while I’ve had to have this card for some nations, most countries that require immunization record do it in order to get a VISA, and most airlines consider the visa sufficient. It may also be that your ~50 countries were not in zones that have these practices. For example, I’ve traveled extensively in these green and light green zones that do: https://i.imgur.com/3DTF6n8.jpg https://i.imgur.com/3DTF6n8.jpg Here are countries requiring proof of yellow fever vax as of 2019 (not all at-risk countries listed require it): https://cdn.who.int/media/docs/default-source/documents/emergencies/travel-advice/countries-yellow-fever-transmission-risk-requiring-ith-travel-en.pdf https://cdn.who.int/media/docs/default-source/documents/emer... // Parent is not “completely right”, only “anecdotally” right. Given the audience size of HN, it’s likely several readers share a birthday, and likely many readers have not experienced vax checks at borders. And yet, they exist.
Bud 4y ago
You don't appear to have the faintest idea what gaslighting means. Hint: this isn't it. Yes, of course the rollout of covid vaccines was different than YOUR EXPERIENCE of all other vaccines. Because you weren't around when the polio vaccine rolled out, or for any influenza pandemics, or the plague, or smallpox. Have you thought for 15 seconds before speaking? Obviously, when a new disease emerges and is killing millions of people, you have to do a NEW vaccine rollout, and so obviously, this is going to look different than the normal process where children receive a long list of vaccinations that have built up over the last century or so. You need to get your basic facts straight before accusing those who actually are thinking about the issue of "gaslighting".
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  I was specifically talking about previous vaccine mandates during flu pandemics, as a point of comparison. Is your comparison that we should act like medieval Europe? — otherwise I don’t know why you’re discussing the plague. We live in a different society with different standards. Despite accusing me of “not thinking”, you’re making completely absurd comparisons. And it’s precisely that kind of nonsense response accusing me of not understanding which I believe is gaslighting.